2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
dryseeker
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Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 26 May 2021, 15:55

Hello everybody. Im having issues with my male GSD who turns 2 next month. After losing my 13 year old to DM I was positively devastated and started looking for a puppy, he came from a good breeder as I met his parents and they had been tested for hip issues and DM and the parents were wonderful dogs.

When he was about 3 months old he became ill and was diagnosed with Giardia, after treatment he was fine and weighed 74lbs at the age of one. He is VERY tall and lanky so I had thought he was a bit light but wasnt overly concerned. After this a pattern began as about every 2-3 months he would develop very soft stools and diarrhea. He would continue to eat though and had a insatiable appetite, the vet had me feeding him 7 cups of food a day. He was on Royal Kanine puppy food and switched to their adult food last summer. He rarely had good stools and seemed to quit gaining weight. I would get fecal tests done during this period all of which were negative.


In late February I had him tested for EPI which came back negative. I had a fecal test done in early March which came back positive for Giardia (My older female also came back positive) and was treated accordingly. At this point it was discovered he was down to 67lbs which scared me quite a bit. At the vets advice I put him on Hills Biome dry food and probiotics. It has had an amazing effect as his stool has been excellent ever since in form and texture however it is often a dark grey color. I weighed him this morning however and he hasnt gained any weight at all. I also had a new fecal test done to see if Giardia was still present and am awaiting results.

Like I said he was tested for EPI and has had several blood panels done which all were negative. He is VERY high drive and I cannot seem to get enough food in him, he also will sometimes eat his own stool and chews on branches and anything else he can. He seems perfectly fine and is always ready to play however Im obviously very concerned. He is still intact as I was waiting for him to turn 2. You can see his ribs and hip bones and has a tiny waist. I have seen pictures of his siblings and they all seem to be much heavier. Again he is very tall (my wife measured his withers at 28 inches) I know the vet had mentioned tested him for IBD but he never throws up and is ALWAYS starved. I have attached his medical information-the last page shows EPI results. Any insight is vastly appreciated-thank you!
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Michaela
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Posts: 148
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Nikki
My name: Michaela

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Michaela » 26 May 2021, 17:47

Glad to see you here William, I'm sure someone will have some ideas on what may be going on with Gunther.

Michaela (from the GSD board)

R.I.P. Nikki 11/21/2009 - 05/23/2023

Nikki was diagnosed with EPI in 2010
Royal Canin Gastrointestinal Low Fat canned
Slippery Elm syrup for stomach issues
1 tsp Pan-Tenex enzymes with each meal
Weekly B12 shots, pills didn't work for her
Tylan for life


"If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart, I'll stay there forever."

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Olesia711 » 26 May 2021, 22:57

Hi WIlliam,

So sorry Gunther is struggling so much but thank you very much for including his lab reports!
Based on what you are describing and his lab reports....my thought is that one possibility is that he is segueing into EPI... we have had other dogs that were not clinical EPI and not even SEPI (subclinical EPI) but yet had EPI symptoms with a TLI score in the teens. What happened within time (a year/+) is that these dogs all developed EPI.

What i would suggest that you do is ask your vet if you can start giving pancreatic enzymes now however also rerun the TLI test in another 3 to 6 months to see if the TLI value has dropped below 13. The good thing about the enzymes, is even if not EPI, if given temporarily, they will not hurt. You just do not want the dog on enzymes forever if they do not need it. DOing the TLI again in 3 to 6 months will help you and your vet assess this and whether you should or should not continue with the enzymes.

ALSO... another reason why Gunther may not be gaining any weight is that his B12 level is low normal.. if everything else was fine, this would not be too much of a concern. But in this case, i would definitely start supplementing with B12. THankfully B12 is water soluble... so if you give more than is needed, he will just pee it out..... but since something is going on... i would supplement with B12. Many of us here use Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 pills that are made with Methylcobalamin, Folate and Intrinsic factor
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

What does concern me though is since he is not gaining weight AND since his folate level is high... when Folate is high it indicates small intestinal dysbiosis... when this is all combined, there usually is an underlying gastrointestinal issue (and this could also be IBD like your vet suggested or it could be segueing into EPI) but in any case, it should be treated. Your vet already has Gunther on an excellent probiotic, so that is very good... BUT.... your vet also prescribed Metronidazole, and that is not so good for a "chronic" gastrointestinal condition. They are now strongly advising against using metronidazole for any chronic gastro condition... which "might" be what is going on with Gunther, whether he is segueing into EPI or he has IBD or IBS. SO... for this i would ask the vet to please swap out the metro for Tylan antibiotic. ALso if you are giving the probiotic with the metro... the metro is wiping out any benefit of the probiotics. WIth TYlan, this won't happen as Tylan doesn't kill all the bacteria but rather inhibits bacterial reproduction. TO keep it simple, we like to tell people just give the probiotic 2 hours away from any antibiotic... even though you can give it together with Tylan.

Of course, i am just going by the lab reports....and i am assuming that your vet gave metro for the loose stools. If your vet is continuing to prescribe Metronidazole for Giardia, then your vet is correct in prescribing Metro as it is the correct drug for Giardia... you just don't want to prescribe Metro for ongoing diarrhea from a chronic gastro condition... hence why i am suggesting Tylan instead. Also.... Tylan works MUCH better on SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) where as Metro often doesn't always work as well on the loose stools..........

If the enzymes and B12 and Tylan do not help at all.... then i would lean towards what your vet is suggesting, possible IBD.... in which case, what i would do next is a simple blood test to strongly indicate IBD before doing an invasive scope.... and actually i would even try a hydrolyzed food before doing a scope.... simply because a scope is invasive. The two IBD possible blood tests are as follows:
March 2021

Previously the only accurate way to test for IBD was via an invasive scope.

Thanks to recent technology, they now have non-invasive ways to test for IBD. Simple Blood Tests!
Currently there are two labs that are doing blood testing for IBD:

TAMU: Canine C-reactive Protein – Gastrointestinal Laboratory (tamu.edu) https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/a ... e-protein/
ANTECH: Antech Diagnostics | Canine IBD/Chronic Enteropathy Assay https://www.antechdiagnostics.com/labor ... -ibd-assay
And if you want to do a saliva test for what the sensitivities might be, check out Dr. Jean Dodds Sensitivity Test:
DR. JEAN DODDS: Nutriscan | Hemopet https://hemopet.org/nutriscan/

Hopefully this is of some help!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 27 May 2021, 10:47

Wow thank you so much for your insight, you have given me a lot to try and consider which I will jump on as soon as I get his fecal test results back from yesterday. He actually hasnt been on Metro since late March as I have tried to avoid him taking it as much as I can as I had read about the issues it causes. He has had Giardia at least twice though he has also been negative several times, really hoping this test is negative as Im sure they will prescribe metro for it yet again. I thought I read somewhere Giardia has become resistant to metro as well.

Im going to try enzymes and B12 as you recommend, though he doesn't have all the EPI symptoms he certainly has some. He is absolutely ravenous 24/7 no matter how much he eats and prior to switching food his stool was almost always soft. The weight loss has been gradual so I still think he may have it. I am also going to schedule a IDB test as well and may even get an ultrasound. He is a happy playful dog and has only really acted sick once, just very concerned at this point as I was really bummed yesterday to see he hadnt gained any weight back. Again thank you so much for your insight-very grateful!

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Olesia711 » 27 May 2021, 12:03

well, i just learned something from you... i had no yet heard that Giardia may now be resistant to Metronidazole... that would be a shame as it used to be so effective with that.

Please keep us posted and be sure to share with your vet what we recommended and why and make sure he/she is on board with everything. Also.... what might be very helpful is if you start keeping a journal (even take pictures) with what you try and the outcome (poop pics, write up about vomiting, acid reflux, etc, weight gain/loss, farts, etc).... as keeping notes will greatly help not only you but your vet to further assess what might be going on.

Hope by adding enzymes (temporarily until mores tests confirm) and B12 helps Gunther start gaining weight, etc.

Oh...and i forgot to mention.... some dogs, especially if this does segue into EPI.... simply need more food overall to maintain. If Gunther is hungry, feed more....just do it in small portions only more small meals throughout the day. with confirmed EPI dogs, we recommend feeding 150% of what that dog (according to weight0 technically requires)..... so this is also something else you can try.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 May 2021, 13:49

William, you can order great enzymes from Enzyme Diane, without a prescription, at about 1/3 the cost of enzymes from the vet. My most recent order came in less than a week. Many of us on the forum have used her for years, with success.

I believe Tucker segued into EPI from puppyhood, until diagnosed at 5. He was doing many of the things you describe Gunther doing. WOW, is he handsome! Can't wait to see his "after" pics. Tuck used to look like that, before he gained 20 pounds.

You're going to get lots of help from this group.

https://enzymediane.com/

Take Care---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 27 May 2021, 18:19

Thank you both so much for your input! Im not 100% sure on the Giardia being resistant to Metro but seem to recall reading an article which indicated that was the case. After looking at Gunnys record he was on Metro 5x since the beginning of 2020. I sometimes feel like my Vets just prescribe it and hope for the best. I think they are excellent but the clinic has changed since the pandemic and it doesnt seem like they take the time like they used to. Im hoping they are onboard with the enzyme treatment as its happening either way! Another thing I forgot is Gunther also seems to have some allergies (itching) and somedays is hell bent on eating mud from my backyard. I have noticed is he is suddenly terrified of everything, the first 10 months I owned him he went to daycare with his sister 5 days a week and was becoming very well socialized and getting exposed/trained. However the pandemic forced their daycare to close (Had been taking my dogs to them for 8 years and knew owners/staff very well)and have had a very difficult time finding a new place for them. I found one that is ok but a bit too crowded however they havent been since March due to Giardia, this has been tough on him as Im his sole source of entertainment. He is utterly terrified of thunder, the Vet and even having his nails trimmed or medicine applied. He is friendly enough to people and other dogs but this trait scares me.

Thanks for the enzyme link Pam and for sharing your story, I really want to see Gunnys "After " picture as well! He is a handsome boy and acts like he knows it! Olesia cant thank you enough, I should be talking to Vet in next day or so. I will also begin keeping a record of his activities as you suggested. Thanks again-You guys are AWESOME!

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 May 2021, 19:13

Tucker ate paper, sticks, dirt, eyeglasses, whole rolls of toilet paper, kong toys....It was explained to me that he was literally starving, trying desperately to find nourishment, and then it made sense.

He was always afraid of walking on a busy road, and he hated thunderstorms, but I do feel that as he has gotten older his anxiety has grown worse. He won't even go for a walk in the woods anymore.

I don't believe there is any research linking EPI to anxiety, but I sometimes wonder if the trauma of feeling so hungry has made him feel permanently insecure.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Olesia711 » 27 May 2021, 20:54

Unfortunately a lot of EPI dogs can be called "anxious".... i wonder if part of it it could have something to do with so many of them having low B12 and then by the time they are diagnosed and we give them B12 to bring up their levels, if some of the anxiousness becomes a little bit of a learned behavior .... this is just me wondering... no science that i know of to substantiate this.........................................
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Barb » 28 May 2021, 19:07

Hello, William. A warm welcome to you and Gunther. You have received excellent advice and we will look forward to hearing what you and your vet decide and how Gunther responds.

You mentioned some of Gunther's fears and behaviors. Before our Kolby was diagnosed, he developed fears and behaviors that he didn't have before. He became afraid of getting in the car, which he had loved before. He became fearful of other dogs. He pulled up patches of grass and then ate the dirt and left the grass. Some of these things disappeared once we treated the EPI and got his B12 levels up. Some behaviors stayed.

You also mentioned Gunther's fear of the vet and having his nails trimmed. I can really empathize with you on these. Our girl, Madison, non-EPI, had become extremely anxious of going to the vet, and especially of having nails trimmed. We finally had to give her light sedation in pill form 2 hours before our appointment so that by the time we got there, she would be relaxed. It worked amazingly well. She was much better behaved and was able to have her nails trimmed and a procedure to remove several canine warts for analysis (they were benign).

I mention the medication to you as an alternative to having Gunther be so stressed during a vet visit. I never thought I would use medication, but seeing how stressed Madison was at having her nails done, I realized it was to her benefit. I know that some people use medication during thunder storms, but I don't know how effective it is.

Let us know how Gunther is doing. He is a handsome boy!

Barb

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