Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Erinj2510
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Arthur

Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Erinj2510 » 08 Jun 2021, 19:25

My 2 year old yellow lab was recently diagnosed with EPI and has been on enzyme replacement for about a month. He also has many allergies that up until now are not managed well and he is itchy all over. I have an appointment with an allergist in a couple weeks. Lately he has not only been licking his paws but he has been rubbing his muzzle on anything he can find. Very vigorously at times. His lips are swollen and he is pawing and rubbing so much he is tearing up his face as well. My thought is that he having a reaction to the enzymes but I’m not really sure what a dog’s mouth looks like when they have a reaction to the enzymes. I have started incubating his food 30 minutes now and wiping his mouth after he eats but I’m still not sure if he is reacting to the enzymes, or is it allergies and his lips are swollen because he has itched it so much. Does anyone know how I could tell for sure if the enzymes are the problem?

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1274
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by jilbert57 » 08 Jun 2021, 21:02

It is good you are incubating longer and wiping the muzzle. You could also put a few kibble or ice chips in his water dish with a little water so he has to wash his mouth after enzymes .

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1987
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Jun 2021, 23:25

So sorry to heart that your dog is having swollen lips etc.... it could very well be the enzymes... some dogs are extra sensitive, but since your dog has so many other allergies, it is hard to tell if it was the enzymes that have triggered the latest episode.

But... like Jill said... giving ice cubes after wards is helpful, and the fact that you have started incubating the food longer and wiping his mouth that ought to help... the other thing you can do is a a tablespoon of water to his food to further dilute the caustic properties of the enzymes.

Please keep us posted on what the vet says..............

If it gets REAL bad and nothing helps, you can try pouring the enzymes into empty gel caps, although that is not the best way to give the enzymes... or if your vet determines that he had a pork allergy THEN you can switch to CREON. ALthough CREON is also pork enzymes, they are in enteric coated little spheres on a capsule and for some reason, even dogs with pork allergies can take CREON whereas they cannot handle the powder enzymes...............

In any case, please keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 1291
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Jean » 09 Jun 2021, 06:28

if this is a reaction to porcine Enzyme Diane has alternatives as in Bovine

https://enzymediane.com/product-category/special-order/

give her a ring


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Erinj2510
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Arthur

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Erinj2510 » 09 Jun 2021, 10:42

Thanks for all of the ideas. I have also started feeding him out of a flat, glass pie dish so the sides of his muzzle aren’t rubbing against the sides of the bowl. I saw this idea on another post I saw. So, him rubbing and pawing at his muzzle didn’t start until we were about 2 weeks into enzyme replacement. Would it take that long for him to have a reaction if it is the enzymes that are causing irritation? I know he doesn’t have an allergy to pork, however, he is allergic to just about everything else you can think of, including grass. His EPI is far from being under control either which just adds another issue he is struggling with. Thanks again for everyone’s words of encouragement. I’ve never had a pet with as many issues so it is nice to know there is a place for me to hear advice from others that are going through or who have gone through the same things.

JakeEPI
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Jake
My name: Mother

Bloody Mouth After Eating

Post by JakeEPI » 09 Jun 2021, 11:01

Good morning,

I am new to this forum (today)! I came across this forum upon searching "bleeding gums in dogs with EPI" and was very excited to find it.

I have a 14 y.o maltese boy "Jake" who very suddenly had the following symptoms back in March:

Horrible diarrhea (cow patty)
Oily substance out of his pooper hole
Incontinance from his pooper hole
throwing up
starving
weight loss (he was only 7-8 lbs to start and dropped to 5 lbs very rapidly
eating his own poop (GROSS)
his liver function test was through the roof at over 1800

After $3,000 in medical I finally found an internal meds doc at a VCA hospital in San Diego, CA
They finally did a GI panel and determined it IS in fact EPI.

The internist has put him on PancreaCare enzyme powder (3/4 to 1 tsp with each meal) and Cobalequim (sp?) B-12 pills 1 x /day. Fortunately, he is gaining weight, cow pattys have stopped, and he is getting along ....although he is still eating his own poop which is absolutely disgusting, and he never did that previously.

The last few days I've noticed two things starting, about 1 month after being on the enzyme powder:

1. Jake has started this horrible FOUL smell like OLD ROTTEN DOG (but I cannot identify it to any spot on his body) I bathe him regularly too.

2. Jake's mouth has started bleeding badly after he eats. Only after eating, he has blood all around his mouth and on his paw (from cleaning his mouth). I feel horrible for him. I pulled up his mouth and do notice his gums look inflamed, maybe ulcers.

I immediately looked this up and found your forum and see that the enzyme powder might be causing this. I have a call into the vet but was wondering what you all have experienced with the PancreaCare enzyme powder (if anyone uses that particular script) and if all EPI powders do this.

What do you give to your EPI dogs for the bleeding mouth/gums?

I already have been adding a little organic chicken broth to his "Just Food 4 Dogs" food to mix up the powder a bit. I have also tried letting it sit a while before feeding it to him right away as I have read about the "incubating" the powder.

Do you all put anything on the poor dog's gums? Vet's office said not to use Hydrogen peroxide mix (toxic for dogs), so I am just waiting to hear back from vet.

Thanks very much for your advice and feedback.

Warm regards,

Jake's mom - Kimberly

I am hoping to have a call with the vet today, so any input/feedback before then would be super helpful.

You can reach me directly at bmwkat@aol.com and thank you SO much for your reply.

Also- do you all buy the enzyme powder in bulk by chance and then split with group?

Warm regards,

Jake's mom - Kimberly

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1274
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by jilbert57 » 09 Jun 2021, 12:23

Hi Kimberly, I started a thread for you called Kimberly with Jake.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 1291
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Jean » 09 Jun 2021, 13:00

Hi I assume your name is Erin, huge welcome from Liverpool

it can take any time for intollerances to become obvious

the flat glass plate is a great idea, and a squirt bottle after feeding, or several ice cubes which will wash the mouth out, but if he is chewing his paws that is an allergy, and likely to be porcine

but EnzymeDiane can come to the rescue, give her a bell

they never give you an even ride, My girl was DIFFICULT but we persevered and so did she, B12 is the biggie and to supplement with capsules is easy Wonderlabs b12 intrinsic factor is essential

jxx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Erinj2510
Member
Posts: 5
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Arthur

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Erinj2510 » 09 Jun 2021, 13:29

We had him allergy tested when he was a young pup because he had already started to show sign of skin, feet and ear infections. According to the test, he is not allergic to pork. He has had issues licking his feet every spring/ summer which would often lead to his feet being infected. The way he is pawing at his muzzle and rubbing it on the floor and other surfaces is a new thing. This leads me to believe it is somehow connected to the enzymes. I’m super eager to go to the allergy specialist and see what he thinks. Unfortunately, they are few and far between where I am and it is still a week and a half before we have our appointment. I’m hoping to have more answers then. Thanks again.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 738
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Mouth irritation from enzymes or allergies?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 09 Jun 2021, 14:11

Erin, Welcome from Pam & Tucker in Florida.

Tucker does a similar thing, but I haven't really noticed his mouth being swollen. He will cry & rub his snout along the floor or couch, and when he does this I take a very wet paper towel & wipe all around the outside of his face & inside his gums. Sometimes I see blood on the paper towel. This gives him some relief, but as we know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

What has really, really helped me prevent the tender mouth, is to add even more liquid to his food. I make turkey wing broth, which I water down to bring to room temp, and I probably add 3/4 cup of liquid to 2 cups of kibble. Then marinate, and yes, the longer, the better. 30 minutes is good. After the meal, I saturate a paper towel (dripping wet) & go over his mouth, inside & out.

I have thought about a small water bottle, kind of like a squirt bottle, but one that you cut the tip off of & it pours, more than it squirts. I believe some people on the forum have had success with that application, but things like bottles scare Tucker, and paper towels don't.

If you want ideas about things like brands of food & enzymes, you can read along the bottom of some of the posts. Many of us use Diane's Enzymes, which are not prescription enzymes. Like Jean said, if a pork allergy has developed, you can look into Diane's other options.


Please keep us posted. We're glad you're here!

---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests