Any Advice or Suggestions

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Sep 2018, 17:52

Danielle,

Thanks for writing me privately... so sorry you had issues with replying to the posts.... hopefully what you did fixed it... and ... BTW....i am impressed ... but..... if it happens again, please let me know and we will have Craig, our webmaster work his magic so that it won't happen again :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Jean
Staff
Posts: 625
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by Jean » 04 Sep 2018, 03:15

that reminded me of Kara

she can tolerate any protein if its cooked for her, put it in dog food and she cannot, too much fillers like peas and grain , so we go grain and rice free

Ian my vet, says dog food chicken is the dregs left over

there is a dog food outlet over here that advertise that pet foods can be crap, and they determinedly make sure everything they sell is properly labelled

this is an interesting site

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

you will get there, just keep a note of everything you do in a journal

jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by miamunchkin » 05 Sep 2018, 15:08

Hi Jean,

Sorry, some technical issues with my laptop!

Do you know if there's a recommended brand for plant enzymes?

I'd definitely be interested to hear from Maddy about tests for allergies, but her vet did say that there weren't any definitive tests available for Mia. Maybe because of her IBD the tests won't work on her?

These are here past 4 blood works. I just copied down the abnormalities, and, unfortunately, since they were done at 3 different hospitals, the scales for some things are a little different.

6/8/2018 & 5/20/2018 Cholesterol (low 48/131), Chloride (high), lipase (low 59/138), ALP (high 240/160), creatinine (low 0.4/0.5)

7/20/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure)

8/18/2018 Cholesterol (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), Precision PSL (low, but pancreatitis unlikely), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5), MCV (high 80/79, Glucose (high in urine analysis --possible prelude to diabetes, but could be result of chlorambucil), chloride (high)

Thank you for the help in advance!
Danielle
Jean wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 03:33
for years we have had the odd person who's dog cannot tolerate porcine enzymes

my girl is intolerant of most proteins, but she strangely does tolerate porcine enzymes

have you had tests for intolerances, I am aware that there are tests in USA I will reach out to Maddy for you

there are folk who had no choice but to go towards plant enymes, and if this is what you have to do, then so be it

can you give us the test results you have for the blood tests you have had taken

Creon although enteric coated is porcine, and will react if your dog is intollerant

please ask away

jean
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

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miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by miamunchkin » 05 Sep 2018, 15:14

Hello,

Thank you for your reply! Sorry for my own late one--having some technical difficulties.

Unfortunately, I can definitely say that the Viokase-V isn't going to work, or at least not the way it was originally instructed. She was prescribed 1/2 teaspoon twice a day. The first day, I gave her 1/2 a teaspoon, and she had full-blown diarrhea, stomach pain, and loss of appetite. I lowered the dosage to less than 1/16 of a teaspoon. I did that once a day for a couple of days. She continued to have looser stools than usual. I thought maybe she might need enzymes with every piece of food. I gave her less than 1/16th of a teaspoon with every meal. She ended up with diarrhea for 3 days. As soon as I stop giving her the enzymes, she recovers within 12 hours.

I am putting it down to the basics and slowly adding back in the usual. Thanks for that suggestion!

Riley's Mom wrote:
31 Aug 2018, 07:23
Good morning
I agree with Jill, maybe there are too many things going on right now and it's become hard to pinpoint what is working and what is not for your pup.
Creon is a good alternative to powered enzymes. Sometimes even if a dog has a pork allergy, they can tolerate it.

If it were me, I would take her routine back to the very basics, then slowly add things in one at a time (waiting 3-5 days between each change) keeping careful notes to help determine what is working and what is causing problems. Sometimes when our pups struggle, our first inclination is to throw everything at them to try to help, but too much all at once can muddy the waters. Keep it simple at first if you can.

I know it is very difficult to manage IBD and EPI at the same time, but the reality is that with EPI, your dog must have some type of enzymes or she can not digest what you feed her. What dose did you start with the Viokase-V initially? Because you have concurrent conditions, it may be hard to figure what is causing the loose stools, but certainly too low a dose of enzymes could be the culprit as well as the IBD.
I know your head must be spinning, remember to run anything we suggest by your vet.
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

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miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by miamunchkin » 05 Sep 2018, 15:17

Hi Olesia,

Glad we eventually got it figured out! Thanks again for getting back to me so quickly!

Olesia711 wrote:
03 Sep 2018, 17:52
Danielle,

Thanks for writing me privately... so sorry you had issues with replying to the posts.... hopefully what you did fixed it... and ... BTW....i am impressed ... but..... if it happens again, please let me know and we will have Craig, our webmaster work his magic so that it won't happen again :)
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

User avatar
miamunchkin
Member
Posts: 16
Country: United States
State: California

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by miamunchkin » 05 Sep 2018, 15:25

Hi Jean,

Thanks for the link! The specialist also recommended trying home-cooked meals so she gave me a couple of samples of this fish and sweet potato from a company called Just Food for Dogs (they specialized in food for dogs with things like IBD and EPI), but Mia got sick on it almost right away even though I only gave her like a 1/4 of the juices of the frozen meal. The problem is that Mia's had a lot of different kinds of foods during the time that all the vets were trying to figure out what was wrong, including tuna and bone broth soup from chicken that I used to make her when she got really sick and wouldn't eat anything.

I'll definitely check out the site,
Danielle
Jean wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 03:15
that reminded me of Kara

she can tolerate any protein if its cooked for her, put it in dog food and she cannot, too much fillers like peas and grain , so we go grain and rice free

Ian my vet, says dog food chicken is the dregs left over

there is a dog food outlet over here that advertise that pet foods can be crap, and they determinedly make sure everything they sell is properly labelled

this is an interesting site

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

you will get there, just keep a note of everything you do in a journal

jean
Danielle

Mia is a 3-year-old Jindo-terrier mix. She was diagnosed with SIBO in April 2018, IBD in June 2018 and EPI in July 2018.
She currently eats Royal Canin HP Diet food, 4/3 cup every 2 or 3 hours until her conditions are under control. Plus some fruits and vegetables like watermelon and carrots.
Every 2-3 days, she gets 1 ml shot of B12. Every day, omega-3 (on temporary hold), spirulina, vitamin K.
Enzymes are Papain mixed in with canned sweet potato, spirulina, HP diet treats and kibble.
Right now, she is 18.8 pounds.

8/18/2018 Fasting Serum TLI 2.6 mcg/L, cholesterol level (too low to measure), Creatinine (low 0.4/0.5), Amylase (low 119/290), WBC (high 17.4/ 15.5)

Judith
Member
Posts: 24
Country: United States
State: Delaware

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by Judith » 05 Sep 2018, 18:46

Hi Danielle

Have you ruled out atypical Addison's disease?
Nate and Raymi's mom
Nate 4 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
EPI, typical Addison's disease and epilepsy
TLI 2.0 June 2016
Chemeyes enzyme capsules
Hydroxocobalamin injections weekly
0.5mg prednisolone daily for Addison's
Percorten-V/Zycortal injection every 28 days for Addison's
Zonisamide 2x for epilepsy

Raymi 6 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Allergic to chicken and turkey

Eats Canine Caviar Venison kibble 3x

Nate and Raymi happily live in Bogotá, Colombia and Dover, Delaware.

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 13:42

Hi Danielle,

Just read thru the test results... and her reactions..... *sigh*..... at the very least, it sounds like she is really the most trouble with her IBD condition which makes it very difficult for you to find "stuff" that works............. and i feel for you..........

Has your vet checked for possible kidney issues? And yes.. just looking at the test values and how she is reacting... i too was wondering about possible diabetes

I agree with the others and what you are discovering that no matter what/how you try the porcine enzymes.... poor baby gets loose stools.... so if it is almost well managed with the plant enzymes.... then stick with it.... maybe even try upping the plant enzyme dose to see if that helps......
You also asked (i think) regarding a good plant enzymes. There are a lot of good products out there, but one that comes to my mind is:
https://www.k9medicinals.com/pet-produc ... tal-zymes/
I am sure others might chime in if they have a suggestions also.....

Regarding the Vivonex T.E.N ..just reading the ingredients, i am a fan... I am a big proponent of amino acids having more of an influence in the gastro-tract than what was previously known... and more and more research is actually supporting this...... However.... considering Mia's reaction... i brought up the ingredients in this and am now wondering if it is a minor ingredient that is setting her off in this and other things....

Image


For example, Fiona with Dexter, she had a lot of trouble (over 2 years!!!) trying to find the right food for Dexter ..... she started scrutinizing the ingredients and discovered (i think i have the right ingredient-Fiona, plz correct me if i am wrong!) that it appears that Sunflower Oil seemed to be an ingredient in things that did not agree with Dexter. Well... just a coincidence... this product, that sounds excellent with a lot of beneficial amino acids that research is now supporting, just happens to have Sunflower oil in it as an ingredient.... and this is what reminded me of Fiona's and Dexter's situation....... so........................i am jsut wondering, even if not Sunflower oil.... but it might be some other "minor" ingredient above and beyond the major proteins that are setting little Mia off???? Might be something to look into:
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Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 597
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Sep 2018, 17:33

I have heard of the plant enzymes Olesia mentioned. Totalzymes worked for Mickey(until he needed stronger) and the owner was more than willing to help. Just call him. Even the plant enzymes can be helped by incubation before feeding.
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 12 yrs young. TJ is a 3 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Madelon
President
Posts: 573
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Any Advice or Suggestions

Post by Madelon » 07 Sep 2018, 20:58

Hi there. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. My boy was plagued with skin infections and bad poos after being diagnosed and switching his foods. I suspected a food allergy after comparing the ingredients of his old food to the food I switched to. I went to a dermatologist - yikes talk about expensive - she suggested a food trial which I honestly just couldn't afford with a GSD that was eating almost 8cups of food a day and I also didn't want him to continue to suffer as I tried things.

I researched and did the NutriScan Food Sensitivity test by Dr. Jean Dodds - there is much research behind it and I for one can vouch for it. It's a saliva test you do at home and send in - I got the results on New Year's Eve - less than two weeks - once I switched his food based on the test his issues resolved. He began a slight itch the following Spring which I knew was environmental but because I'm a crazy dog owner I had blood allergy testing for food and environment - the blood food allergy test confirmed the NutriScan test. I know several dog owners that have used the NutriScan test and swear by the results. So something to consider.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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