Kimberly with Jake

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Posts: 1274
Country: United States
State: Washington

Kimberly with Jake

Post by jilbert57 » 09 Jun 2021, 11:46

DAE avatarJakeEPI
Member
Bloody Mouth After Eating
Unread post Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:01 am

Good morning,

I am new to this forum (today)! I came across this forum upon searching "bleeding gums in dogs with EPI" and was very excited to find it.

I have a 14 y.o maltese boy "Jake" who very suddenly had the following symptoms back in March:

Horrible diarrhea (cow patty)
Oily substance out of his pooper hole
Incontinance from his pooper hole
throwing up
starving
weight loss (he was only 7-8 lbs to start and dropped to 5 lbs very rapidly
eating his own poop (GROSS)
his liver function test was through the roof at over 1800

After $3,000 in medical I finally found an internal meds doc at a VCA hospital in San Diego, CA
They finally did a GI panel and determined it IS in fact EPI.

The internist has put him on PancreaCare enzyme powder (3/4 to 1 tsp with each meal) and Cobalequim (sp?) B-12 pills 1 x /day. Fortunately, he is gaining weight, cow pattys have stopped, and he is getting along ....although he is still eating his own poop which is absolutely disgusting, and he never did that previously.

The last few days I've noticed two things starting, about 1 month after being on the enzyme powder:

1. Jake has started this horrible FOUL smell like OLD ROTTEN DOG (but I cannot identify it to any spot on his body) I bathe him regularly too.

2. Jake's mouth has started bleeding badly after he eats. Only after eating, he has blood all around his mouth and on his paw (from cleaning his mouth). I feel horrible for him. I pulled up his mouth and do notice his gums look inflamed, maybe ulcers.

I immediately looked this up and found your forum and see that the enzyme powder might be causing this. I have a call into the vet but was wondering what you all have experienced with the PancreaCare enzyme powder (if anyone uses that particular script) and if all EPI powders do this.

What do you give to your EPI dogs for the bleeding mouth/gums?

I already have been adding a little organic chicken broth to his "Just Food 4 Dogs" food to mix up the powder a bit. I have also tried letting it sit a while before feeding it to him right away as I have read about the "incubating" the powder.

Do you all put anything on the poor dog's gums? Vet's office said not to use Hydrogen peroxide mix (toxic for dogs), so I am just waiting to hear back from vet.

Thanks very much for your advice and feedback.

Warm regards,

Jake's mom - Kimberly

I am hoping to have a call with the vet today, so any input/feedback before then would be super helpful.

You can reach me directly at bmwkat@aol.com and thank you SO much for your reply.

Also- do you all buy the enzyme powder in bulk by chance and then split with group?

Warm regards,

Jake's mom - Kimberly

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 738
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 09 Jun 2021, 14:31

Awww, Kimberly, I have a Maltese (chubby 9 pounder)& a Maltipoo, and though neither has EPI, I find that they are smelly little things, anyway. Then you add the classic EPI stinky stench, and whoa! That must be a lot.

In my experience, EPI Tucker starts smelling when his SID flares up. Is your vet addressing this? I hate to start throwing a bunch of facts your way, when you are just starting out, so I'll wait to hear your answer.

Gums---YEP, it can happen. I use Diane's Enzymes---learned about them here--- (cheaper & OTC), and I have started to add more liquid (turkey broth + water), and being sure to marinate the full 20 minutes before serving.

After the meal, I saturate a paper towel (dripping) & wipe outside his snout & inside his gums. Seems to do the trick.

Tucker stopped eating his own poo & everybody else's after we got his EPI under control; I bet Jake will eventually do the same. He's been desperately trying to get the nutrients he needs, and maybe has also developed a taste for the poo. I think it will probably clear up. Tuck had been eating poo for over four years, when he began treatment.

We are so glad you are here, and we encourage you to ask all your questions. The staff on this awesome forum have really got a lot of information to share.


---Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

JakeEPI
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Jake
My name: Mother

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by JakeEPI » 09 Jun 2021, 15:49

Thank you very much for your reply.

What is SID? Vet has not mentioned this.

Jake's liver levels were extremely high 1800 initially but that came down once he started denamarin which he hates unless I give it to him with a little peanut butter. He does not like taking pills.

I am grateful the oily, runny cow-patties and leaking buttocks has subsided since starting this.

I am definitely going to reduce his PancreCare slightly (despite the vets recommended amount) and will let it sit longer before serving to him and I was already adding some broth but I think Turkey broth is prob. better for him then chicken broth. I use organic.

I will try rinsing out his mouth.

The vet specifically put him on the PancreCare Enzyme powder and I have ample bottles for the next few months, but are all enzyme powders created equal? Has anyone else used the PancreCare and had issues?

Thanks much everyone,

Kimberly & Jake

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jilbert57
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Posts: 1274
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by jilbert57 » 09 Jun 2021, 17:00

Hi Kimberly,
The amount of enzymes you use depends on the amount of food, not per meal. The start point is 1 level teaspoon per 1 cup dry kibble, stir together and add a small amount of room temperature liquid, stir all together so all kibbles are covered. Let incubate 20 to 30 mins then stir before serving. Canned food is 3/4 teaspoon per 1 cup canned.

Not all enzymes are created equal. You will need to compare the strengths between bottles.

SID is small intestinal dysbiosis, usually accompanied by belching, passing gas and upset tummy. It is an overgrowth of bad bacteria in the gut. Most Epi pups have it.

https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-management/

Is the food you are feeding grain free by chance?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 738
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 09 Jun 2021, 18:22

The SID may be the reason for the atrocious odor. I find whenever Tuck starts reeking, the bad gas isn't far behind, and he is treated with an antibiotic called Tylan. Your vet will possibly prescribe metrodinazole, but that is not the preferred antibiotic. It wipes out good flora, as well as bad. Tylan doesn't do that.

My Maltese eats about 1/2 cup of kibble twice a day, so I'm guessing you should be feeding 1 1/2 cups or so per day, which would make the dose of enzymes 3/4 teaspoons per meal. OR, since he's little, you might even want to feed him 1/2 cup kibble + 1/2 teaspoon enzymes, three times a day.

Glad to hear the poo is better! There are all kinds of resources here. Managing EPI is my favorite, and it goes over the four cornerstones. Olesia was kind enough to type them out for me, so I can copy & paste. AND, I HAVE ERASED IT. I am so sorry. I'm sure a staff member will share them w/ details. They are basically, enzymes, <4% fiber diet, SID, and B12.

Also, please ask your vet to email the results of the tests he did, and post them here. That makes it easier to help!---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 675
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Barb » 10 Jun 2021, 13:05

A warm welcome to you and Jake.


Our Kolby had ulcers at the beginning from the enzymes and sometimes some blood.....not quite as bad as Jake's. We found that increasing the amount of water mixed with the enzymes before incubating helped. We also increased the incubation time by quite a bit until he got used to the enzymes. Then we slowly backed it down. Using a squirt bottle or small baster to rinse his mouth after eating also helped a lot.

Let us know how he does.

Barb

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Michaela
Member
Posts: 64
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Nikki
My name: Michaela

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Michaela » 19 Jun 2021, 17:08

We have used different enzymes in the past and only had mouth sores with one brand - PancrePlus. The company (VetOne) told me to return the enzymes to our vet and ask for a refund.

We've used Viokase, EnzymeDiane, Pancrezyme & Pan-Tenex without issues, so switching to a different brand would be worth a try.
Nikki was diagnosed with EPI in 2010
Royal Canin PD canned
Slippery Elm syrup for stomach issues
1 1/4 tsp Pan-Tenex enzymes with each meal
Weekly B12 shots, pills didn't work for her
Tylan for life


"If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart, I'll stay there forever."

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Jean
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Posts: 1291
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Jean » 20 Jun 2021, 05:52

Huge welcome from the UK

SID/SIBO often causes internal issues as the bad bugs create the flora of the gut to react

Tylan is a good one and is weight dosed

scroll down

https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

we have used

https://www.greatpetcare.com/pet-medica ... -for-dogs/

in the past with success, it is an all rounder and not a drug which I like, as with everything check with your vet
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 738
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Kimberly with Jake

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 20 Jun 2021, 07:45

JEAN---Charcoal sounds like a great idea. When do you give it, and does it not absorb the enzymes? I have never used it for tummy issues. I have a jar for whitening my teeth, but I haven't had the nerve to try it, yet....Sounds like charcoal is a many-faceted substance!---PH
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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