Stomach rumbles

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
AngelaRush
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Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Lola
My name: Angela

Stomach rumbles

Post by AngelaRush » 22 Jun 2021, 21:40

Hello! I have a gsd, she was finally dx with EPI after several months of trying to figure out what is wrong. She was 65lbs and is down to 41 lbs. she currently is on the enzyme powder, vitamin b, and a steroid to help hopefully add weight to her. She also eats the royal cannin food that was prescribed to her: we have seen improvement on her poop more firm, more energy again. She was also dx with being anemic, her gums are slowly getting color back! But we are noticing her stomach is making a lot of noises, anyone have suggestions or may know? Any suggestions on help the weight gain? Anyone else have their dog in different treatments or are we kissing a step? Our vet who finally dx left and the office is not familiar with EPI. She is also eating her poop. Any suggestions please! I’m thankful this website has provided us with hope!

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Olesia711 » 22 Jun 2021, 22:58

Hi Angela,

SO sorry your GSD was diagnosed with EPI..... i am assuming via the TLI blood test? Can you share with us what the score was?
Also... those tummy noises are what we call SID (small intestinal dysbiosis). All dogs with EPI have SID.. the objective is to keep SID under good control until we learn how to better handle it or hopefully someday alleviate it completely.

One reason why out of control SID happens could be when not the right kind, or the right amount, or prepared properly enzymes are used. It can also get out of control if not feed an optimal food, and it often rears it's ugly head shortly after a case of EPI has just been diagnosed, all goes well for a few weeks/month and then everything goes south. This is from putrefaction. ALthough not the scientific explanation, kind of visualize before EPI treatment, all this food has been ingested but the nutrients have not been properly absorbed. So this all starts piling up and rotting. Along comes enzymes that starts finally digesting the needed nutrients from the food and visualize it shaking loose all that previous collected putrid particles now moving thru the digestive system causing gas, stink, upset stomach, etc..... this is kind of what happens with many newly diagnosed cases of EPI.

OR.... if you are not giving the right kind of enzymes (pig-based) digestive enzymes in the right potency, amount, preparation) or it could be the food, is not optimal for your individual EPI dog. This often varies because each dog's gut flora has it's own unique gut flora composition so not all foods agree equally. etc.

In any case the current recommended protocol to get SID back under good control (normal stools, no vomiting or gas) is to first try a prebiotic.
1. We often suggest try adding SLippery ELm powder to the meals. If you see some improvement but not enough (or no improvement) then we suggest:
2. try a pre+probiotic. Some of the products we currently recommend until something better comes along, i Visbiome, or Proviable, etc.
3. if the above options don't really help or work, THEN ask your vet to prescribe Tylan antibiotic.... do NOT let him give your dog Metronidazole for SID. They are now strongly advising against giving Metro for any chronic gastrointestinal upset like SID.


Can you share with us what kind of enzymes you are using and how much and how you are administering it.
ALSO... how much food are you giving with the enzymes.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Montgomery
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Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Montgomery » 22 Jun 2021, 23:06

Sometimes weight gain just takes time.
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats Royal Canin Spayed/Neutered Kitten dry food and Royal Canin Ultra Light wet food. He takes two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's Enzymes with each meal, and gets one number four capsule of Tylosin three times a day. He also gets half a millilitre of Ovol twice a day. Montgomery is a fierce, unflappable little guy. Strong, independent and awesome.

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Jean
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Jean » 23 Jun 2021, 05:30

Welcome from the UK

my Kara at her worst was 39 pounds at 14 months old so I empathise big time

you do not need to have prescription food . we recommend Grain free, low fibre, preferably without Chicken or poultry fat, for some reason they sometimes do not do well on it, naturally if she has another condition then we need to know

Anaemia is one we came across with Kara, she was given tablets and it went , it was just caused by maluntrition caused by EPI

As to weight gain, if this has been a while being diagnosed, then the organs and brain will take all of the nutrient, we recommend 50% over and above the amount of food the bag says for the weight the dog SHOULD be over as many meals as you can fit in over the day, all enzymed

if you could fill us in on your regime daily it would help, My Kara went up to 90 pounds and stabilised for 8 years, the b12 you mention is that by injection , or by tablet, if so which one ? and as already asked which enzyme, But it took time , as V says the same
b12 is essential to an EPI dog

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

Keep a daily journal and record everything , it kept me sane

this will explain SID/SIBO

https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/

let us know and we can help
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Barb
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Posts: 674
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Barb » 23 Jun 2021, 13:57

Hello Angela. A warm welcome to you and Lola. You have been given excellent advice....especially Olesia's excellent explanation of SID. Getting the correct diagnosis is the most important part, so you are on your way to helping Lola to good health. What form of B12 supplementation are you giving, injections or pills? If you are giving pills make sure they have Intrinsic Factor so the B12 can be absorbed. We usually use Wonderlabs' Pet Factor. Wonderlabs is a great company and have good products. Once you get a good balance with the food, Pro/Pre biotics or antibiotics for SID, get the B12 levels up, then the weight will start to come back. Our Kolby was a slow gainer.....some dogs are, so don't be discouraged if the weight does not increase quickly.

I heartily endorse the log/journal that others have mentioned. Keeping a daily record of everything you give Lola and the amounts and the resulting poos will help you to see what is working and what needs to be adjusted.

Some dogs engage in poop eating when they are feeling so hungry before diagnosis. Often it goes away when they are treated, but some keep the behavior out of habit. I had a non EPI dog who had a tendency toward this behavior for his whole life. We used the speedy clean up to avoid it. LOL

Let us know how she does.

Barb

Tuckaboo Pam
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Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 23 Jun 2021, 14:01

Hi Angela, and welcome to the both of you!

Since Lola should weigh 65 pounds, you should feed her 150% of the recommended amount for a 65 pound dog. i.e., if the bag says 3 cups/day, you feed 4 1/2, and you spread it over two or three meals, all enzymed, usually 1 teaspoon enzymes/1 cup of food.

Her food should be low fiber, <4%, and it doesn't need to be low fat. Many of us with shepherds & shepherd Xs have good results from Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs, and it is not RX. You said your vet is unfamiliar with EPI, so hopefully she will be open to learning what you find out on the forum. Please feel free to share the forum with her, too.

Olesia already asked for the exact test results. I had to ask my vet to email them, too, because she simply called & said positive for EPI! It's good for the staff to check all the numbers & to see what tests were run. They really know their stuff.

So, stay in touch & ask all the questions you want. You have come to a great place, and we will help get Lola to where she needs to be!

---Pam & Tucker in FL
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

AngelaRush
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Lola
My name: Angela

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by AngelaRush » 23 Jun 2021, 17:31

So we have ordered the pancreatin 6x from enzyme Diane, we were told before to do 1/2 tsp per cup, so we were feeding her three times day and at each meal she would get two cups of food and a teaspoon of powder. She is on the b12 tablets, she takes one a day along with budesione 3mg once a day.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 23 Jun 2021, 18:09

Angela, it is one teaspoon of enzymes per one cup of food. You will also want to add room temperature liquid, water or broth, stir and let sit for 20 minutes before you feed her. She will gain her weight back. Tucker gained 20 pounds over a few months time. He ate poop, too, really bad, but as he got better and became nourished & healthy he stopped.
-Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

AngelaRush
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Lola
My name: Angela

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by AngelaRush » 23 Jun 2021, 18:28

Thank you so much!! I’m thankful for this website as my vet knows little about this all!

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 714
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Stomach rumbles

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 23 Jun 2021, 18:56

We are so glad you found this place, and we have all been where you are now.
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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