New EPI dog

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Harper
Member
Posts: 8
Location: Missouri
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Harper
My name: Alexis

New EPI dog

Post by Harper » 24 Jun 2021, 19:36

Hi,

I’m Harpers mom, she’s a 1.5 year old blue heeler (Australian cattle dog) who was recently diagnosed with EPI, we got a relatively quick diagnosis and started enzymes nearly 2 weeks ago. She has had a few okay poops but nothing “normal” yet. I added a pic of the best poop she’s had. My vet is great but hasn’t treated a dog with EPI before so I am so grateful for this forum. I’m currently feeding her 1 1/3 cups of science diet I/D kibble and mixing her Pancreaplus- 1 tsp with a small amount of wet ID food at the instruction of my vet. The enzyme bottle says 10-15 minute incubation but I’ve been doing closer to 20min.
I also give her one Packet of antibiotics once a day.

Another issue I’m having is she eats ANYTHING she can get to outside, even on a leash it’s hard to keep her from eating grass and dirt, I feel like this is exacerbating the issue, I’m truly considering muzzling her until we get her appetite controlled.

I’ve read the threads from other newbies and it seems like slippery elm is something most people add to the regimen, where do you buy this and does anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks so much,
Alexis
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Jean
Staff
Posts: 1285
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Jean » 25 Jun 2021, 06:58

Good morning from Liverpool, UK

that sure looks like some undigested food in the poo

so questions, and thoughts

is there any reason to feed Hills food ? we recommend grain free kibble or wet food with 3% or lower fibre, My girl couldnt tolerate any chicken in dog food or poultry fat, and over the years it has been noticed that others have the same issue, you do not need prescription foods unless there is another condition

Has the vet tested for Cobalamin (b12) it is imperitive that they have b12 if so can you post any results you have

this will explain better than I can

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

you can either ask your vet for injections which must be dark pink in colour or

https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

we can recommend these as so many of our members have tried and tested successfully

As for surfing outside, she is still hungry, so we recommend you feed 50% over and above the recommendation on the food bag for the weight the dog SHOULD weigh over as many meals as you can fit in over the day all enzymed, this is only temporary until they pick up

please share anything from our pages with your vet, and ask anything

also have a look at this

https://www.viovet.co.uk/Ancol-Dog-Mesh-Muzzle/c5171/

my friends dog used to eat pebbles off the beach and after a very expensive surgery resorted to something like this

it will resolve trust me, Kara would have eaten wood

an evening meal before bed is a nice one,scrambled egg and mashed potato, no milk no salt , and dont blame me if she insists on it for life ! of couse it must be enzymed , helps them to get through the night

Slippery elm

https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/

and finally what do you mean by a packet of antibiotics daily What are they ?

Have a look at Enzyme Diane, she does discounted enzymes

https://enzymediane.com/

and again we can recommend as so many of our members have used them for years

Create a journal and record everything

Australian Cattle Dogs are adorable, we love pictures


Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Harper
Member
Posts: 8
Location: Missouri
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Harper
My name: Alexis

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Harper » 25 Jun 2021, 09:17

Thank you Jean!!

So the reason for the Hills is this, I fed Taste of the Wild to Harper and my other 2 dogs but when Harper started having chronic diarrhea the vet thought maybe the Rx diet was the solution, Harper does have a history of a sensitive stomach so I was on board with us. Obviously that was not the problem and since we got the EPI diagnosis I was hesitant to change other variables if that makes sense, didn’t want to switch foods and that cause diarrhea and not know if it was the enzymes not working for her, bacteria, or a food switch.

The vet didn’t test her b12, I did ask her about it and she said we could go ahead and supplement her but she didn’t show any clinical symptoms of having low b12.

Thank you for the link to the muzzle! So, the vet advised me to give her one tsp of enzymes per meal- which is 1.3 cups of kibble and a little wet food. But from what I’ve read here I should really be giving her 1.3 tsp right?

The antibiotics part was a typo, sorry! Meant PRObiotics.

I have started keeping a journal, and have a photo album on my phone for her stools. All tips I picked up from here. It’s scary to be in a space where my vet doesn’t have experience with this disease and trying to advocate for Harper from what I’m finding on this page.

Everyone I’ve seen has said it will get better, it just takes time to figure out what works for your dog but in the back of my mind I’m worried that it won’t work. Does that happen? Are there dogs that simply don’t respond to enzyme treatment?

I added a photo to this one, her and her sister Callie. Harper is the blue on the right :)
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Jean
Staff
Posts: 1285
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Jean » 25 Jun 2021, 11:43

Please dont get yourself worried

My Kara was 39 pounds at her worst and 14 months old, she was a mess

ok more questions, does she have any tummy rumbles ?

I am not sure how the vet could think there was no neccessity to test for b12, and what the clinical signs would be, my girl would go a bit crazy if hers was low

we supplemented for life,and she had an injection monthly

if you follow the recommendations there is no reason why she shouldnt improve, Kara did slowly, but as I said she was a mess, she stabilised at 90 pounds for 8 years

you are right in that the rule of thumb is 1 teaspoon per cup of kibble, so 1.3 teaspoons would be about right, have a look at Enzyme Diane it might help your pocket

so I suggest you ask the vet for generic injections of b12, and order the capsules from Wonderlabs, they have worked with EPI4DOGS for a long time now, and create a great product, you normally give 1 per day but at the start I gave Kara 2 per day, they cant digest food if theitr b12 is low, perhaps share that link I gave you with your vet

Hills food sometimes has a lot of grain in it, and our dogs just dont in the main do well on it,

so, have a look at some grain free there are loads around now, just check the ingredients, we had Kara on Lamb based food with vegetables and she thrived,

this is a for life condition,which becomes normal to you very quickly, and they become a very normal dog

My Kara was so funny and a joy, I can assure you that I was disraught at the start, EPI4DOGS helped me enormously, and I have made soooo many personal friends

love that picture, and what looks like horses behind them


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Montgomery
Member
Posts: 103
Country: Canada
Pet name: Montgomery (I'm a CAT!)
My name: V

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Montgomery » 25 Jun 2021, 13:12

A basket or cage muzzle should stop her from picking up and consuming random things. She can pant and drink and take a small treat from you, but not grab sticks, candy wrappers, etc...I know they look mean, but they can save lives. I'm glad you found this forum - everyone here is wonderful!
Montgomery was born 20 March 2012. He eats Royal Canin Spayed/Neutered Kitten dry food and Royal Canin Ultra Light wet food. He takes two size zero capsules of Enzyme Diane's Enzymes with each meal, and gets one number four capsule of Tylosin three times a day. He also gets half a millilitre of Ovol twice a day. Montgomery is a fierce, unflappable little guy. Strong, independent and awesome.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 674
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Barb » 25 Jun 2021, 13:25

A warm welcome to you and Harper. What beautiful pups you have! Jean covered just about everything. I'll just emphasize a few.

Definitely supplement her B12. Most dogs have low B12 when they are first diagnosed. We like to see them in the upper middle range as B12 can drop fast. As Jean said you can use injections or Wonderlabs' capsules with Intrinsic Factor. They call theirs Pet Factor. Kolby had B12 for life (close to 11 years) and he did very well on it.

Check out Enzyme Diane for enzymes. (1 teaspoon per cup). Many of us have had our dogs on them for years. She publishes her phone number on her website so you can call her and ask questions. She has an excellent product and is great to work with.

You will start to see improvement once you get everything balanced. Food, Enzymes, B12, Antibiotics if needed. Keeping the journal will help. It saved our sanity. Record everything you give her, the amounts, and the resulting poos. Then you can see what works and what needs to be adjusted. Make only one change at a time so you can correctly identify what might cause a problem with her poos. Soon managing EPI will become an easy part of your daily routine. It seems overwhelming at first, but it definitely gets easier. And there isn't any reason when the treatment won't work once you are using the replacement enzymes, the B12, the grain free food and Pre or Pro biotics.....or antibiotics if she should need them.

Kolby (our EPI German Shepherd) lived to be just shy of 11 years old and passed last year from an aggressive form of cancer. It moved so fast that he didn't suffer. He was a joy from beginning to end, a happy, loving delight who loved every minute of every day, a wonderful example and gift to us.

So hang in there and ask any questions you have.

Barb

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 714
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 Jun 2021, 13:51

Hi, Alexis. Welcome, and you are going to be fine! Enzyme Diane!

I didn't notice anyone else answer your question about slippery elm, so I thought maybe I'd try to address it with two questions. 1) What antibiotic is in your packets? Did the vet say why? and 2) STAFF---Is there any reason to not start slippery elm as a preventive for SID? I am looking at this two ways---first, if it's not broken don't fix it, and second an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. (I was thinking about this earlier, as I was preparing Tuck's breakfast. Why not give a touch of SE, and possibly avoid the need for Tylan?)

Please ask your vet for all your test results, and post them when you can.

A tip I like to share is, read along the bottom of the posts, to see the routines we have found useful for each of our dogs...they are ALL different!

Welcome to both of you. We are GLAD you're here!---Pam & Tucker in FL
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, slippery elm 1/8 teaspoon twice/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

Harper
Member
Posts: 8
Location: Missouri
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Harper
My name: Alexis

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Harper » 25 Jun 2021, 14:25

Wow, I am just blown away by all of your kindness and responses. Thank you all.

Jean, yes she has tummy rumbles and GAS. She did not have gas like this before we started the enzymes so that’s probably pointing to a SIBO issue right? I ordered SE from Wonderlabs last night so hopefully we can start that very soon. I asked my vet about it and she offered to prescribe me Metro but I had read here that that was not the ideal antibiotic. I asked about the tylosin instead and she said they would have to order it but she would be happy to. So my thought was I’d try the SE first and if that’s not helping order Tylosin. Any feedback on that plan?

As for the B12 levels, when I had Harper tested they did a TLI test but my vet didn’t know to test for b12 as well. Is this something I can supplement now and test later or best to get a baseline and then make a management plan from there?

Pam, sorry for the typo- I’m not giving her any antibiotics I meant to say probiotics! But yes I see what you’re saying about the SE! My vet said she couldn’t really speak to its properties but saw no reason not to try it if I wanted to try and avoid antibiotics.

I will request her test results and post them here :)

I don’t know how familiar everyone is with heeler dogs but they are tough as nails. When I took Harper in for her TLI test she was a bundle of energy as always and the vet said “uhm.. aren’t you supposed to be sick?!” Thank you for the encouragement.

Alexis

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Jean
Staff
Posts: 1285
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Jean » 26 Jun 2021, 07:11

ok so the probability is that SIBO/SID is in contention

I would avoid Metro, and plump for Tylan twice daily for 45 days, it is weight dosed

scroll down

https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

personally you need to get rid of any bad bugs as they destroy what b12 she has built up in her body, the rumbling is the bad bugs doing their thing

the pro biotics have to be give opposite the Tylan 1.e say Tylan 8.00am probiotic several hours later, Tylan is does every 12 hours, you can fit it in somehow

you will get there, you can test for b12 whenever, just get the capsules from Wonderlabs
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Harper
Member
Posts: 8
Location: Missouri
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Harper
My name: Alexis

Re: New EPI dog

Post by Harper » 26 Jun 2021, 10:21

Jean,

Harper has had bloody diarrhea the last 2 days. I am attributing this to “surfing” as she threw up some grass shortly before this started. I called my vet and she said she could start her on metro now but they don’t keep tylosin on hand and it could be weeks before they can get it from the university.

I have slippery elm on its way, I think should be here Tuesday. I know you JUST told me to avoid metro, but in this situation maybe it’s worth a short stint of that antibiotic?

Thanks for any suggestions!

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