Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 03 Sep 2018, 18:26

Suggestions Please!
I am on day three for giving my newly diagnosed EPI GSD her powdered enzymes. I am using Biocase. For the first two days I gave her two cups CANIDAE® Grain Free PURE Ridge™ Dog Dry Formula with Real Chicken (which is what she was already used too), two teaspoons powder, 1/2 cup warm water, incubated between 30-60 minutes two times a day. In the last 48 hours she has had two poops that were completly formed and somewhat darker in color and then all the others were more EPI typical stools, yellow, grainy, soft, mushy, cow-patty, with some mixture of soft formed. My biggest concern is that five times since starting the enzymes, in two days, she has "spit-up" clear liquid. She just opens her mouth, doesn't make any retching sounds, bends over and clear liquid comes out. Sometimes almost like a light spray of just a few drops, other times the size of a silver dollar to a large pancake of liquid on the ground. One time she made a kind of belching sound and then a few drops of clear liquid hit the ground. She has gotten one B-12 shot and I have ordered the Pet Factor B-12 and will start that orally daily once I get it. Her B-12 level was 279 and TLI was 1.3. I know there are many recommendations from antibiotics to probiotics etc, but I wanted to be methodical and start the fewest things first to see how she responded. What do you think the spitting up of clear liquid is a sign of? My best guess is acid reflux from the enzyme powder as this is the only new thing at this point and she has never done this before. Should I continue on or change formulas? Should I continue the same dose even though her poops haven't changed that much yet and just give it more time? Still pooping frequently (11 times total after two days of enzymes), about the same or a little less frequent than before.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by jilbert57 » 03 Sep 2018, 18:51

I am wondering if SID is playing a role in the spit up. Was Zoe treated with Tylan or Metronidazole?
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 03 Sep 2018, 19:43

No. Not yet.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Sep 2018, 21:01

That does sound like acid....
We have recently discovered that all EPI dogs have bile and SID isues. With some dog we notice there is a problem and yet with other dogs, we do not see any signs. Another thing with these EPI dogs is that every thing is connected..... SID itself can trigger acid reflux. Sometimes it is a real acid reflux issue where nothing helps until your vet will prescribe an acid reducer like Pepcid AC (only give this under the guidance of your vet) ... but you don't want to keep a dog on an acid reducer forever... too much can lower the B12.... acid reducers should be taken as needed.

BUT.... more times than not, the acid in an EPI dog is from SID which doesn't need an acid reducer cause it is not because of too much acid, but rather from not enough of the right kind of acid..... in this case, usually SLippery Elm, which is a prebiotic & mucilage it has jsut the right amount of the right kind of fiber with SCFAs (short chain fatty acids) specifically Butyrate, that actually battles SID and this often takes care of the acid without resorting to chemicals like Pepcid AC.

The theory behind this is, if this acid is because of SID that your dog is experiencing acid reflux, you need to alter the gut flora. EPI dogs do not have enough bacteria nor do they have enough of a variety of bacterial strains. Prebiotics feed bacteria which is needed by an EPI dog.

So.... one of my suggestion would be to go on the SLippery Elm page,
https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
get some powder (not the capsules) you can get it from Amazon.com, NOW puts out a SLippery Elm powder, 4oz for about $8. Give a little less than what is recommended (too much SCFA will also give loose stools- -so sometimes less is better).... and i would try Slippery Elm powder sprinkled in the food with every meal... if you do not see an improvement in a couple of days, then you most likely need to bring out the big guns and i would ask your vet for Tylan antibiotic powder/45 days/twice a day.... this should address the SID and in turn address the acid.............

There are more tricks to handle this, but with an EPI dog, you only want to try one thing at a time.

Let us know how things go :) ... and if you need more suggestions.

OH..... while i am thinking of it.... there is another thing.... if you are seeing this clear acid in the morning... that is from an empty stomach... many of us have fixed this by giving a little snack just before bedtime.... but.... jsut reading your post, it sounds like the white acid is happening throughout the day- - and if so, then this is not from just an empty stomach......
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Jean
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Posts: 647
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 04 Sep 2018, 02:59

my Kara had this

she just openned her mouth and spit out liquid, and froth

the vets approach, and he had dealt with EPI for 20 + years was

its acid reflux, probably caused by a change in enzymes,

so we gave Kara Ranitadine, (Zantac ) 30 mins before food, it coats the gut, and if as Olesia says, its first thing in the morning, give a small meal before bedtime, with enzymes

you should be able to buy Ranitadine over the counter in USA, Zantac is expensive in comparison, we used the 75 mg pack, but maybe run that, and anything else past your vet

we were lucky, we could give Kara a digestive biscuit, I am not sure you have them in USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_biscuit

I had no idea they originated in Scotland, you live and learn, but Scotland is a very different world to us in Liverpool, and its only 200 miles ish,,,,,,,

But you could maybe give some mashed potato and a scrambled egg

we no longer have this issue, but have the pills in her medicine cupboard, just in case, she still has her digestive biscuits at night, not all EPI dogs could tolerate them

its all good fun, and they are worth everything you do

one thing, keep a journal of anything, and everything you do, I still have mine 8 years down the line, a huge note book with pictures and print outs, I suppose its like a scrap book !

a life history!

jean UK
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Sep 2018, 09:48

Thanks Jean..... i looked it up on Wikipedia and this is the description..... i suspect it is the sodium biocarbonate in these biscuits that do the trick :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_biscuit

"The term "digestive" is derived from the belief that they had antacid properties due to the use of sodium bicarbonate when they were first developed.[2] Historically, some producers used diastatic malt extract to "digest" some of the starch that existed in flour prior to baking.[3][4]"

I also did a search on digestive biscuits for dogs... and what popped up were Probiotic treats here in the US (which is not the same) .... SO.... my guess is that maybe we can just try baking our own little biscuits, try a few and see if they help.... might have to tweak some of the ingredients- -to make it more appetizing&appropriate for a pup ..... but here is a basic recipe:

https://www.wikihow.com/Make-Baking-Soda-Biscuits

However.... i did find this doggie charcoal biscuit recipe that i thought might also be a possibility
https://www.lubrisyn.com/homemade-charc ... -biscuits/
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 04 Sep 2018, 10:36

Wouldn't any treat have to be treated with the enzymes first, even these?
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
Staff
Posts: 647
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 04 Sep 2018, 11:04

over here if you have a gastric issue, the doctors will say

eat digestives, and, or Arrowroot biscuits, no food, no dairy, just water and juice

so there you go

jx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Sep 2018, 19:51

yes and no.... we have many ways of covering treats with enzymes.... a lot of times... if we cannot include enzymes in the treat (you have to be careful not to include enzymes and then bake with anything over 130 degrees or that will kill the enzymes included in the batter)

SO..... one way to get around this is to feed a meal with enzymes per usual.... and just give the non-enzymed treat within 1 hour of that enzymed meal :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Madelon
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Posts: 600
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Madelon » 04 Sep 2018, 21:32

Hi and welcome to our group. The B12 is extremely low and if you've only had one shot it probably is still not at the level needed for EPI dogs - 600+. Glad you ordered the B12 pills from WonderLabs. It could be SID as the B12 is so low. Once you get the pills I would start them right away. In the meantime, I would try Slippery Elm Bark Powder - here's the link to our Slippery Elm Page https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/. If the symptoms continue, then I would talk to your vet about a course of Tylan.

Please keep us posted on how things go.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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