Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

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sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 05 Sep 2018, 21:02

Hello again,
Here is the most current update on Zoe: This is Day 5 of Enzymes. Current regime is 2 cups of CANIDAE Grain-Free PURE Ridge Formula with Fresh Chicken Limited Ingredient Adult Dry Dog Food/2 tsp (minus 1/8 tsp per Olesia's recommendations starting dinner feed on Day 3 due to acid reflux) Bio Case enzyme powder/1/2 cup warm water incubating for 1 hour Twice a day. As of today (Day 5) added 1/2 tsp (minus a pinch) Slippery Elm powder twice a day due to continued acid reflux (spitting up clear liquid occassionally starting on Day 1 which has not stopped). We are squirting her mouth with a squirt bottle after eating, and she is drinking after eating as well. She got one B-12 shot 5 days ago. Waiting for delivery of PET Factor B-12 w/ Intrinsic Factor and will then start 1000 ug daily x 12 weeks (per Texas A & M guidelines). Her last 7 poops have all been formed, ranging from yellowish-brown to light brown. Her pooping frequency has decreased from approximately 6 a day to approximately 3 a day.

Questions: I am currently incubating her moistened food and enzymes for one hour for fear of mouth sores. I don't see open sores, but her gum-line does look reddened around most of her teeth (just the line where her gums meet the top of teeth, not entire gums or mucous membranes). I understand that the recommended time is 20 minutes or more for incubation. 1) Do you think her gum-line will "get used to" the enzymes and calm down or should I be concerned? 2) Would longer incubation help or be a problem? Does incubating too long cause the enzymes to loose their potency? Is one hour acceptable or when people recommend longer are they meaning more like 30 minutes?

I will send photos of her gum-line and a "before" and "after" poop picture because who doesn't love pictures of poo!

Thank you so much.
Sonja
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Poop Day 5
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Gum-line Day 5 enzymes
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Gum-line Day 5 enzymes
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Spit Up clear frothy liquid
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Poop prior to diagnosis and treatment
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My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Posts: 625
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 06 Sep 2018, 03:27

do I recognise that before poo

the now poops look like they are getting there, :) huge improvement

we are all certified Poopologists, grade A+

and well done on the b12, , and checking with Texas web site

the US people usually leave for 30 minutes for incubation of enzymes, but I will leave the US guys to talk about that for you

over here ours dont need it

my thoughts are.........try to feed on a pie dish or flat plate, glass, it gets less of the muzzle in the dish, and wipe the mouth out after feeding, say with a spray bottle , as you are doing,

You certainly have researched, brilliant, I am sure this will resolve , its just the mouth getting used to the enzymes, how is the spitting doing
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 12:50

Hi Sonja,

WOW Sonja... doing a great job :) and i agree with Jean..... you are on the right path now.

1.Regarding the poo.... you and i communicated privately about the Slippery Elm dose.... glad you posted the pic below regarding the liquid acid /upchuck... couple of questions for you:

does she do that shortly after she eats???? If yes, does she tend to eat fast???? And.....does she drink a lot of water before or after a meal???
If yes to these questions- -this may not be acid but rather regurgitated water.... so... just wondering........

2. Regarding leaving the food for an hour....that is the very most that you should leave it "incubating" if possible, i would try letting the food sit any where between 20 minutes and 45 minutes.....

That red line around the gum at teeth edge.... never saw that before... usually when our dogs are overly sensitive to the enzymes... their gums get puffy/red and if really bad, you'll see sores or a little bit of blood..
The fixes for the above are: (and only try one at a time)
  • add a pinch more water (try adding a tablespoon of water)
    try incubating for 10 more minutes
    decrease the enzymes by a pinch (like 1/16 tsp)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

Barb
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Country: United States
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Barb » 06 Sep 2018, 15:34

Hi Sonja,

I am not sure what happened to my post......I thought I pushed "Submit" but it isn't here, so maybe I didn't.

I am one of the lucky people whose dog, Kolby, developed ulcers almost immediately after starting enzymes........ They were very painful. And having a dog who didn't like the enzymes in the first place made our urgency to fix this even more immediate.

We did what you did. We lengthened the incubation time to an hour. As Olesia said, this is the longest you should go in letting the food sit because of bacteria, but it definitely worked for Kolby. We keep our house cool, so we did not have a problem, but be careful. Once his ulcers subsided, we immediately decreased the time to 45 minutes where we kept it for a long while. Much later, (like years!) we were finally able to go to 30 minutes. So based on my experience, I would say that Zoe will get used to the enzymes.

We also started using a flat glass plate when we realized that he didn't like putting his face into his deep bowl . He would eat his food off a spoon, but not out of the bowl. So we tried the flat plate and it worked beautifully. He still uses it. My friends tease me about taking "spoiling the dog" to a whole new level by serving his food on cut glass, (it isn't really) but I remind them that German Shepherds are descendants of noble and royal lines and must be treated accordingly. I have to remind myself of this when Kolby puts his nose in my face at 6:30 a.m and then brings me his ball so we can get the day going. LOL!

Congratulations on that formed poo. What an improvement. You are doing a great job.

Barb

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 20:29

Thanks so much Barb for sharing Kolby's mouth sores situation.... it is always VERY helpful when others share an actual experience that someone else is struggling with. Thanks! :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 06 Sep 2018, 21:09

Hello again,
Thank you for all who are responding. To answer some of your questions: The spitting up clear liquid is getting better but still happened last night. She went all day yesterday without spitting up until 10:15pm and 11:30pm. Both of those times she made a little kind of belch like noise and then a few drops of clear liquid came out. A few other times she would act like she probably had reflux in her mouth but nothing came out, as she was licking her lips and smacking her lips briefly. No spit ups today so far. Her first two poops after starting the Slippery Elm were mucousy and had some grainy cow-patty stool on top. Today with Olesia's advice, I decrease her Slippery Elm to 1/2 teaspoon minus 2 pinches instead of 1/2 teaspoon minus 1 pinch which she got yesterday (her first day). Her poop after that decrease today was much more formed, no mucous, and no cow-patty soft-serve poop.

To answer Olesia's questions, Zoe didn't have any of her spit ups right after eating or drinking, so I don't think it was water. She doesn't drink water before eating, and she drinks some water afterwards but not a crazy amount.

Luckily, Zoe loves the enzymes so getting her to eat her food has been easy. I will send a picture of her latest poop for your enjoyment;)
Attachments
41063150_447225985684256_5715097390608809984_n.jpg
First poop today after decreased SE dose.
41063150_447225985684256_5715097390608809984_n.jpg (265.66 KiB) Viewed 686 times
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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dana7123
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Posts: 30
Location: Boulder
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by dana7123 » 06 Sep 2018, 22:17

Hi Sonja
Just wanted to welcome you to the forum and to the world of EPI parents! It is quite a journey but our fur babies are worth everything we do for them! Love the pictures of the poo...only EPI people can appreciate them! We know we are far gone when we are out to lunch with friends and we find ourselves discussing our dogs poo with them...and they are not eating all of their lunch :lol: !! Thank goodness we stop just short of pulling out the pictures! My Belle is dealing with a bout of SIBO and we have been on the forum a lot lately. Thank goodness for everyone on this forum!! Don't forget to look into getting your enzymes from enzymediane https://enzymediane.com!! Saves a ton of money and helps us be able to care for our babies.

Belle and I are in Colorado as well. In the Boulder area!

Hang in there!!

Dana & Belle
My Belle is a rescue. She was 3 mo when I adopted her and at 7 mo we discovered the EPI. Her TLI results were "0.4". We went to 3 Vets who tested her for worms, diarrhea etc., and then the 4th vet knew exactly what was wrong once I described the yellow poo and everything else. What a relief! He put her on Science Diet ID and enzymes right away! I was so glad to find enzymediane because that first bottle of enzymes from the vet cost a fortune!! Belle gets 2 1/2 cups of food with 2 1/2 tsp of enzymes twice a day. She has done well (at 103 lbs) but she just started a bout of SIBO. She just started Tylan today. Fingers crossed!

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 06 Sep 2018, 23:21

Next update: Zoe did just drink a ton of water after a walk, like Olesia had asked about, followed by spitting up clear liquid. So maybe that time it was regurgitated water. Do the enzymes make you more thirsty or regurgitate water more than usual? Her last poop tonight was interesting. It was soft and formed but had some bright yellow parts too. See photo. Another question: My male GSD is acting like Zoe is in heat for some reason and is wrestling and humping her a lot more than usual. Might not have anything to do with the enzymes but just wondering if this is related. He is neutered and she is spayed.
Attachments
IMG_2874.JPG
Poop: Day 6 on enzymes/Day 2 of slippery elm
IMG_2874.JPG (3.82 MiB) Viewed 681 times
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 23:33

Sorry....Can't help with the humping situation....

BUT............I am so glad you asked about enzymes making them thirsty... because the answer is YES!!!!!! Many of our pups when they first start on the enzymes they will drink more water... and some do this so much that some will even have "accidents"...... luckily this does subside after a few weeks/month... but if it doesn't then we always err on the side of caution and suggest a vet visit to check for diabetes of crystal/stones/UTI.... just in case we are do focused on EPI-related things that we forget it could be something else...........

So.... if the regurg is very watery and not white foamy or yellow foamy.... then this could be nothing more than jsut too much water........

However... thanks for posting and mentioning the lip licking/lip smacking....when you see that, that indicates and upset tummy.... and with our dogs.... and upset tummy indicates SID *sigh*............. so............we are back to SID/ and how to effectively treat SID.... let me go back and read thru this thread to see where you are at with antibiotics/Tylan for SID.
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 910
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 23:36

Dana... before i re-read Sonja entire thread...... just got to tell you, you made me laugh about co-workers maybe not finishing lunch due to poop discussions..... hang out with us a little longer and trust me, you'll be whipping out poop pictures to family and friends and watch them RUN ... away....... :lol:
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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