Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

[sonjawooden]

Hello again,
I wanted to address the questions from the replies regarding Zoe. First of all, when we switched to the new food we did it cold turkey, so when I mentioned the mucous poops came on day 4 of the new food, it was truly day 4. Today is day 8 of the new food and doing everything else the same. She still has an occasional bad poop but most are good. Someone else asked if she is spitting up any more. She isn't. Someone else asked if we were doing probiotics. We are not giving her additional probiotics but her food does have several different probiotics as part of the ingredients list. She does get slippery elm (prebiotic) as recommended by this forum. Her B-12 level was 279 and TLI was 1.3 at diagnosis on Aug 30, 2018. She started off at 60 pounds so I have been following the Texas A&M protocol for EPI oral B-12 and for her weight it recommends 1000mg once a day for 12 weeks then recheck and adjust according to those results.

And lastly, I can't figure out how to add a signature as requested in the forum or else I would. But for now, this is what my signature would say: My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

[Jean]

hi there

I have updated your signature for you

Jean

[Judy]

Great to know that she is levelling out with the poop and the spitting up has stopped. My non EPI dog, Koda, takes Pepcid when he spits up clear fluid or bile. He has a sensitive belly and the Pepcid works really well.

6.6lb gain in 19 days is really good. It's amazing how fast they start to gain back their weight once they begin treatment.

[sonjawooden]

An update on Zoe: She gained one pound in the last week (approx 7.5 pounds total since diagnosed 4 weeks ago). Since her weight gain slowed down, we added one more cup of Sport Dog Food Whitefish at bedtime. According to the food package chart, 150% of her goal weight food would be 5.8 cups. We started off with 4 cups total (2 cups twice a day), but now are giving 5 cups total (2cups am, 2 cups pm, 1 cup bedtime). We are still giving Slippery Elm with each feeding and one 1000mg Pet Factor B-12 per day. No spitting up, no gurgling belly, no flatulence. She is having approx 4 stools per day and about 50% of them are either too soft, mucousy, lighter in color, or have a strong odor. So I am guessing this means time for a prescription from the vet for Tylan. Would you agree? If so, your website suggests 30-45 days on the SID antibiotic link, so how do you choose? Also, I don't completely understand the chart. Is it saying if Zoe currently weighs 68 pounds (goal wt 78 lbs)she should take 1/4 tsp twice a day. At this point (1 month of trying conservative measures), should we do the Tylan, or should we try adding probiotics first? Or should we add a second B-12 pill per day? Thanks again. Sonja

[Olesia711]

WAHOO !!!!! on the weight gain!

Regarding the 150%.... we recommend that when a dog is first diagnosed with EPI and as a technique to put back weight lost due to untreated EPI. ..... sometimes too much food per meal can cause loose stools.... BUT....... it does sound more like what you are dealing with is SID .... this happens.... a lot......

Since you already are giving Slippery Elm (a prebiotic) .... my suggestion would be for you to now (1) either contact your vet and ask for Tylan... and go with the 45 days. We just say 30 to 45 days cuz the old suggestion was 30 days, but then they upped it to 45 days...however... sometimes when the Tylan is needed yet again in the future for another set back... sometimes it is not necessary for a full 30 days at that point and a 30 day regimen will take care of it... or not. Unfortunately nothing is cut and dry with these dogs..... we often have to tweak things for each individual dog to get the best results. or.. if you want to (2) try adding a probiotic (give this a few weeks/+ too see if you notice a positive difference to where you can avoid using Tylan.... or not.

If your pup weighs between 60 and 85lbs... i would give 1/4 tsp of Tylan..... when giving you don't want to skimp on the Tylan initially..... later you can reduce

I would not add a 2nd B12 pill at this point...........

Hope this helps somewhat .

Please continue to keep us posted!

[sonjawooden]

What probiotic would you try and how much and how do you give it and where do you buy it and how much does it cost? How much does the Tylan cost? Does the Tylan cause many side ecfects for most dogs? Thanks again.

[Olesia711]

regarding probiotics... the reality is that most of the probiotics on the market today include the most common beneficial bugs. You have no idea if these bugs are the bugs that your dogs messed up gut flora really needs..... so.... in short you are throwing some bugs at your dog's gut hoping that it will be beneficial.

Regarding which product... Forti Flora has a pretty good reputation. Although there are no guarantees as to how well it will work with your pup.... you just have to try it. Many people have had good luck with it, whiles others did not..........
How much it costs, i have no idea. i personally do not use any probitoics. i just use prebiotics when needed, but then again, my pup has had EPI for 12+ years and is pretty stable

The Tylan can either be purchased thru your vet (no idea on the cost) .... or... ask you vet to agree to a prescription for it, and then you can go online to one of the pet stores/pharmaceuticals and purchase it. It costs approx $50 for a bottle.

Tylan has no adverse side effects EXCEPT if it does not agree wth your pup, it will give your dog loose stools.... it is a macrolide antibiotic which means it does NOT kill all the bacteria (like Metro) but rather inhibits the bacteria from reproducing...it has no known adverse effects like Metro can "sometimes"

[sonjawooden]

Olesia,

I feel kind of lost as which thing to try next. 50% of Zoe's stools are too soft, mucousy, lighter in color, and have a strong odor or some combination of those things. We have been at this for a month now. So far we are using enzymes, Slippery Elm, and Pet Factor B-12. The Tylan and the Fortiflora probiotic are very similar in price so price won't be the determining factor. Do you have a strong feeling one over the other? Also, since I recently added a night time snack to help with weight gain and help Zoe not have such an empty stomach in the morning, should I still only give the Slippery Elm with the breakfast and dinner feedings and not with the third feeding? I've been giving it for all three feedings, but just noticed on your website that it says for breakfast and dinner feeding. Is there a difference in the way the bad poops look if caused by SID vs needing to adjust the amount of enzymes given? If you have an opinion I would greatly appreciate the advice.

[Miss Maddie Moo]

Hello Sonja
As you are using a pre-botic in the slippery elm and this doesnt seem to have adressed the poop problem i would be inclined to go to the tylan for 45 days give this twice a day morning and night with her food give the SE with the middle meal only.
My other thought and you may want to try this first is an enzyme tweak hard to judge which way but you coud go to the start point which is 1 tsp per cup of food i see that you are using slighly less per 2 cups ie 1 +7/8.
Increase the enzymes and add a chunk of carot to the first meal you do this in, wait for the carot to appear in the poop this will track the transit time keep to this regime for a week and see what happens...if there is no sucess tweak down to say 1.5 tsp per 2 cups of food...its trial and error.
The other thing it could be is the food but only change 1 thing at a time .
Keep asking questions.

[sonjawooden]

When giving the piece of carrot and noting the transit time, how is this information helpful?