Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Barb » 14 Sep 2018, 09:32

Congratulations on the weight gain and the good poops!!!

First, there should be no problem whatever switching over to enzyme diane's enzymes. Kolby reacts to every little change and he had no problem or bad reactions to switching over cold turkey.

Secondly, if Zoe is gaining weight on the amount she is eating, then you can keep her at that amount while she continues to gain and record everything in your log/journal. If she stops gaining and you would like her to weigh a little more, then you could increase the food. Is your goal to have her weigh about the same as her litter mate?

Barb

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 14 Sep 2018, 11:05

Thank you. I am guessing a weight near her sister would be appropriate.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 15 Sep 2018, 04:39

wow things are really looking up

j
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 17 Sep 2018, 13:41

Olesia,
An update and a few more questions. Zoe has had the new dog food (Sport Dog Food whitefish) for 6 days now. She is averaging 3 poops per day and they are almost all formed and brown (2-3 on poop chart), however, on day 4 of the new food, she had two poops in a row that had a yellowish mucous coating on part of the poop segments. Question: Should I expect in the future that Zoe will have a poop here and there that has mucous or is softer or lighter in color than her new "norm" and if it is the rarity, no changes are needed and should not be something to worry about? Or if I see any mucous coating the stool, do I still need to be thinking that her SID isn't under control and needs further treatment?

Next question: I ordered enzymediane's enzymes to use when I run out of my original container of Bio Case enzymes. Looks like Diane's enzymes are slightly higher concentrations. Do I need to make any adjustments?

Next question: If Zoe's poops keep looking good, do I need to stop or decrease the Slippery Elm dose at some point and if so when?

Last question (for now): I am giving the Texas A & M recommendation for the oral B-12 which is 1000 ug daily for 12 weeks, then recheck level. One of the staff on this forum said to give one pill twice a day, which would be twice this amount, so I have so far been only giving one pill (1000 ug) a day. Even though she will pee out any excess I didn't see a reason for giving more than needed. Do you have some reason to suggest giving two pills a day. I have the Pet Factor B-12 with the intrinsic factor added.

As always, thank you so much. We are so happy Zoe is getting better. Will get a new weight tomorrow and see how things are going with that as well.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 17 Sep 2018, 14:04

Olesia might not be able to respond immediately

she has had to evacuate due to the hurricane in the Carolina's

Be assured she will as soon as she is able

I will let the US guys answer your question re enzymes

regarding the mucous is there any rumbling tum sounds

jx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 17 Sep 2018, 19:56

Zoe's weight is up another 3.4 pounds in the last six days. Yay! And to answer your question: no, I don't hear grumbling in her tummy.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 18 Sep 2018, 03:47

that weight gain is brilliant

any more spitting up

jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Paige's Guardian
Member
Posts: 49
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Paige's Guardian » 18 Sep 2018, 07:00

Hi Sonja,

Sounds like things are getting under control. For the yellow mucous poops that happen occasionally, I would just watch that for decreasing or increasing frequency. Is your pup on a probiotic? This might be something to consider to stave off SID. If increasing frequency, then would certainly call vet for consideration of tx for SID. Tylan is the recommended tx.

Glad to hear she has gained weight and is tolerating her new food. For enzyme Diane 6x, the recommendation is 1tsp/cup of food. Usually recommend starting with that, then later once stable, you might can adjust lower or may need to adjust higher depending on how your pup is doing.

I am not familiar with Slippery Elm so, will wait for Olesia to tackle that question.

For B12 with intrinsic factor, my Dane gets 1 capsule per day and this works for her. I think it would depend on how low the B12 was for Zoe and Zoe's body weight. Did your vet provide any info on this? Others will likely chime in on this one.

Conny
Paige's Guardian (Conny)

Paige, 8-year old Great Dane.

Dx: Malabsorption at age 9 months of age. Low Folate. On plant enzymes for 1.5 years. Experienced bloat 2x and Pancreatitis. Switched to Enzyme Diane. TLI tested but never low. Diarrhea when off enzymes.
06/2019--cPL <50 (normal) SID-Tylan 3/8 tsp 2x/day. 1 tsp Pancreatin 6x per meal. Royal Canon Hydrolyzed Protein Dry Food

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Madelon » 18 Sep 2018, 21:22

Congratulations on the weight gain!!

Regarding your question on enzymes - when you switch you should not need to make any adjustments. Most of us start out with the rx enzymes from the vet and switch to EnzymeDiane 6x without any problems - if anything the stronger dose might help the poop output. If you ordered EnzymeDiane 8x then yes you would adjust as it is stronger and the recommended starting dose is 3/4tsp per cup of kibble.

As for the "off" poops - I am 3 1/2 yrs in and my boy has occasional "off" poops - either because he got into something, is stressed or it's just the EPI poop roller coaster. Keep a close eye and if you have an "off" poop and then the next one is good I wouldn't change anything. If you begin to have consistent "off" poops then I would consider a course of Tylan. We now know that SID is always lingering in EPI dogs.

You said the poop changed on day 4 of the new food - was day 4 when you went to 100% on the new food or has she been on the new food 100% for the last 3 days? The current mucous poop could be due to the new food. I would give it a full week on 100% of the new food for the body to adjust - if you are seeing more and more mucous, light poop then I would think that the food does not agree with Zoe.

With regard to the slippery elm, I would not stop it or reduce it while you are trying to figure out if the current new food is working or not. We recommend only making one change at a time to know whether the change works or not. Once you know for sure about the food and have good consistent poop, then you could try stopping or reducing the slippery elm, being sure to keep a detailed log of any changes you notice.

With regard to the B12, if you are switching to the WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills, their recommended dose on the bottle follows our recommended dose, based on weight. Here's the link to our B12 page regarding dosing https://epi4dogs.com/b12-protocol/. My boy weighs 95lbs and I give him 2 pills a day. That being said, every dog is EPI dog is different - some can get away with using less and some need more. If what you're currently giving is working and the levels are good then I would continue with what you are doing.

I hope I haven't added to any confusion. EPI is like a jigsaw puzzle trying to figure out exactly the right pieces to fit in.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Barb » 18 Sep 2018, 21:32

Hi Sonja,

Yay, weight gain! That is awesome.

You can contact Diane (enzymediane.com) and give her the differences in the numbers between her enzymes and the ones you have and she can advise you. We did not have any problems switching from a commercial brand to Diane's, but a phone call will give you peace of mind.

Most people whose dogs need daily supplementation of B12 give their pups 1 B12 capsule--with Intrinsic Factor-- a day. For some of our dogs, this has not been enough to remove the symptoms of low B12. I have a feeling that we are in the minority, that most dogs respond well to 1 pill a day. As Madelon said the dosage is based on weight. So I would start with 1 and see how Zoe does. If her poos stay good, if her appetite and weight remain healthy, if there are no signs of SID, then i pill is sufficient. This is another example of the need for watching your dog and remembering that what works for one dog might not work for another dog.

You are doing a terrific job. Zoe is lucky to have you.

Barb

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