Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Sep 2018, 13:43

Let me think.....how many days have you had Zoe on the SLippery Elm?
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Sep 2018, 14:10

Sonja.....

Since you want to give the conservative method a few more days.....before biting the bullet getting on the TYlan bandwagon..... and if you are willing..... lets see if this SID is being triggered by something in the suggested protocol that needs "tweaking" to better agree with Zoe's situation.

I am listing 3 possibilities that just simple little tweaking can make all the difference (if the problem) and can be causing/contributing to Zoe's SID.... but it is a case of which one do you want to try first- -as you can only do one-thing -at-a-time...... and give it at least 3 days/a few days more is better..... watch the poo and assess the results as to whether or not this might have been contributing to the problem.

1. i need to know SPECIFICALLY the full name of the dog food you are feeding... there are multiple Canidae Chicken Grain free foods.... various versions... and for example what might be happening is that the food you are feeding is not optimal... like , as an example if you are feeding this one "CANIDAE Grain Free PURE Ridge Chicken Formula Dry Dog Food, " , there is WAY too many peas/lentils " Ingredients:
Chicken, chicken meal, lentils, peas, chicken fat, chickpeas, suncured alfalfa, flaxseed, natural flavor, minerals......
"in this food and most of the time will trigger uncontrolled SID in an EPI dog, even if everything is is being done correctly
So we might try a few days of a different food.... to see it this is what is contributing to SID.

OR

2. Are you still using the Biocase enzymes??? this one? https://www.thomaslabs.com/product/bio- ... ic-enzymes .... if yes.... they use a little less lipase... and THAT might be the problem.... remember you reduced the enzymes to see if that would help with the acid reflux situation... well.... it may have helped BUT it also may have created another issue- -encouraging SID to become more uncontrolled because not enough Lipase is being used.
So we might try a few days of increased enzymes.... to see it this is what is contributing to SID.

OR

3. The SLippery Elm might not be working well enough for Zoe ... or..... Zoe might have an elm tree allergy..... or.... this reduced dose of Slippery Elm might still be too much for her.
So we might try a few days of no Slippery Elm .... just to see it this is what is contributing to SID.

Let me know if you want to try this and if so... which one

Having fun yet??!!! I know this is a lot and a pain in the butt... but trust me.... no matter what they wrote about EPI in the medical journals... if/when you find the right balance of EPI..... Zoe should turn around, have normal poos and do great.... we have many people that can attest to this. Years ago vets told us that some dogs will always have loose stools.... but by finding the right balance of each ingredient has debunked this . theory :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 08 Sep 2018, 15:25

Olesia,
Please let me know if I should be privately emailing you with the specifics of Zoe's situation or if the forum is still the best format.
I am comfortable with trying one of your 3 suggestions. I am thinking changing foods might be the smartest thing to do since the peas and lentils are known issues for most EPI dogs.
I looked on the Epi4Dogs site for dry food recommendations and got a bit overwhelmed. Is there any way you could just suggest one of the many possibilities for Zoe to give a try.
I am also grateful that my vet emailed me back and complimented your website and my diligence and said she would order the Tylan when/if I decide to go that route.
Thank you.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Sep 2018, 16:37

i am fine and prefer everything on the forum but only if you are comfortable with using the forum also.

The reason i prefer using the forum, is because although i am giving you suggestions that we typically recommend.... someone else may be reading this thread and have something else to contribute that i may not have thought of or realized... or.... may catch something i missed in one of your posts.... what's that saying.... "it takes a village to raise a ...." (just insert EPI pup instead of child ).

Please thank your vet for the kind words about our website... we try to put the the most current and accurate information out there to the best of our ability... we also try to really help individuals like yourself find that "happy balance of EPI treatment.... and because of our close connection to researchers, we also tend to be the first online with the most current research- -some times debunking previous theories and/or protocols!

Okay.... so.... food it is (this would have been my first choice on what to try next too- -before doing the Tylan..... which i still must caution you, that you still might have to do... but lets try this first :)

Yes... i know it can be overwhelming to pick a food.... but let me give you some parameters and see what you can come up with and i will do the same.... and you can then compare and pick.

Look for foods that have low fiber content (grain free section).... check out the foods with 4% or even lower would be better.
Avoid foods with lots of peas/lentils etc in them
For now, lets look at foods with fillers such as sweet potato or tapioca
To begin with, try checking out foods with fish as the protein.... (can change if not agreeable, but start here)

IMPORTANT.... when trying a different food... ALWAYS start with the smallest bag possible so you don't waste tons of money if it just doesn't agree.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Sep 2018, 21:07

Sonja.... i looked around a bit (on our Dog Food options page AND Chewy website- -as they have a pretty thorough selection) i have 2 i honed in on.... check them out and see what you think:

https://sportdogfood.com/sporting-dog-g ... h-formula/

https://www.chewy.com/sport-dog-food-el ... /dp/172138
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 08 Sep 2018, 23:41

Thank you again. So funny that you recommended the Sport Dog Food because my breeder just started recommending that dog food to his clients unrelated to EPI due to it being legume free. The two links you provided seemed to both have the same dog food and formula from what I can tell, but you said you honed in on 2. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help. I feel very comfortable trying the Sport Dog Food but I'd like to see which two you were trying to share the links to and check them out.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 09 Sep 2018, 12:09

well.... it is the same food on both sites, ours and chewy.... so i guess it is just "1" that i honed in on :)

I did find another one that i also liked BUT it had chickpeas in the ingredients, and even thou that was the only one of the ingredients we are trying to avoid.... and even thou many of our dogs do okay with 1 of the "trying to avoid" ingredients.... i took it off the list and didn't include just because the Sport dog food was better anyway....

Good to know that someone else is recommending this food. If you do decide to try it..... start with the smallest bag possible , cause with EPI dogs, there are no guarantees that something is going to work no matter how well others do on it. It truly is "trial and error" watch the poos and keep us posted :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 09 Sep 2018, 13:44

I ordered the Sport Dog Food. When it gets here do you recommend stopping the current one cold turkey and starting up with the new?
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 09 Sep 2018, 15:52

that is what i do with food that doesn't have any grain in it- -i just switch cold turkey .... HOWEVER, vets tend to disagree with how i do it and prefer to recommend to their patients to slowly introduce a new food... so just to err on the side of caution......, you probably want to start with (over the course of a few days) 25% new food 75% old food, then 50-50% each, then 75% new food 25% old food, then 100% new food.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 13 Sep 2018, 18:02

So I changed dog food cold turkey mainly because I completely ran out of the old right when the new arrived. So I have been using the Sports Dog Food Elite whitefish formula for three meals now and didnt change anything else. Zoe's last four poops since this change have all been formed and brown with only one having a little bright yellow mixed. They havent been mucousy or loose either. So things are going good. Also she is only pooping about three times a day, went 12 hours inbetween poops last time so that is a big change. She gained 2-3 pounds at the 9 day point before changing foods. So first off let's celebrate and I thank you for your detailed and deligent advise and help. Second here are my next two questions. Amount of food: someone on a previous post said to give 150% of the amount of food suggested on dog food bag for the projected goal weight. Zoe is three and has been 60 lbs since she was two (never lost weight but didnt gain). Her sister from her litter weighs 78 lbs. The chart says for dogs exercising 3-4 times/week 70 lbs=3.5 cups and 100lbs=4.5 cups. So that would mean 5.8 cups of food if I used the formula the oother member recommended. I was giving four cups total of the old food and have kept the new food at four cups (2 cups twice a day) so far. Almost six cups a day sounds like a lot and I was thinking since she isnt as underweight as alot of newly diagnosed epi dogs maybe that would be OK as long as we followed her weight trend and she keeps gaining weight. What do you think? My other question regarding the enzymedianes enzymes. You mentioned my Biocase enzymes have a lower amount of Lipase and also is a smidge more expensive than enzymediane's. So...if everything keeps progressing well, and once I start getting low on the enzymes, should I stick to the Biocase or is it an easy transition to the enzymedianes? Thank you again. Sonja
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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