Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Sep 2018, 23:48

Sonja,

Okay, read thru the full thread.... you have just started on this EPI journey... from what you have posted, it sure sounds like things ARE improving and my thought is to give the prebiotics (slippery elm) along with everything else that you are doing a few more days... because you are seeing good poo/bad poo....however.... if after a few more days.... the good poos do not seem to be happening more frequently than the bad poos.... THEN i would talk to your vet, tell him you've tried prebiotics and it's not getting the SID under good control and that you now would like to try a course of Tylan antibiotic powder/45 days/ twice a day.

If i missed this in your thread and you are already giving Tylan antibiotic powder... PLEASE let me know... because then it could be the wrong dose/ not frequent enough / or it could be something that is perpetuating the SID to be uncontrolled and then we look at the diet.... HOWEVER... because you jsut started with the EPI protocol... you need to give what you are doing a little more time to work. Unfortunately with SID.... it is a process... and the way you know it is improving is when you start to see more good poo than bad... and then little by little you notice that you are starting to see all good -looking poo................. SOooo..... you appear to be going in the right direction, you are just not there yet.... and we will help you as best we can to get there :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 07 Sep 2018, 00:07

Olesia,

Thank you for the advice. No. She has not been on antibiotics yet. This is day 6 of enzymes and day 2 of slippery elm. The spit up has almost all looked like spilled water for the most part, not white foamy or yellow foamy. I haven't noticed a ton of lip licking/lip smacking. Her poop pics I sent you from yesterday were mucousy and had cow-patty on top and you said that was sign of SID. Her B-12 pills should get here on Sat (she had one shot last Friday). Will the B-12 helps the SID too? Did her last poop pic in the last post look like SID since it still had the bright yellow parts even though it was formed throughout? When they have "bad" poos, how do you know if it is means adjusting enzymes or means SID? Also, if we do end up needing the Tylan, how much does it cost for the 45 day course? Any tricks to get it cheaper that from the vet? I know it will require a prescription from the vet. I really appreciate your help and your conservative approach to take things slow and methodical.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 07 Sep 2018, 07:35

SID/SIBO needs to be dealt with, it can destroy the B12

the guys will let you know where to get it in USA

We have to get it via the vet here in UK, no other choice

Tylan is a real good thing to have in your medicine box can't help you re the cost
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 07 Sep 2018, 10:32

Hi Sonja...... i suspect you are eventually going to have to get some Tylan to treat the SID.... BUT.... still give the conservative (thanks- -that is the perfect term for how we approach things here ) approach using a prebiotic (slippery elm) a few more days..... and then if you still see sloppy/crappy poo and it does not seem to be improving.... then talk to your vet about getting a little more aggressive with a course of Tylan powder.

THe enzymes pretty much work right away [unless the dose, type or application is incorrect... and you are doing all this correctly from what we can tell :) ] .... however.... that is what really confuses people ... the SID poop looks very similar to thes the EPI poop...... so once you give the enzymes the EPI part should be taken care of.... but since SID is present in all EPI dogs... if you are still seeing crappy poo.... then it is most likely SID... especially if you have other SID signs accompanying the crappy poo....

Regarding getting Tylan cheap... we used to be able to by buying it online without a script... then rules changed and now you have to get it via your vet or a prescription. So what you can do, is after you and your vet decide to go the Tylan route, ask him if he would write or authorize a prescription for you to buy it on line. You can buy with from places like Chewy.com
https://www.chewy.com/s?query=Tylan+for ... it-button=
and or other online pet supply places .....
2 things about Tylan.... (1) when you get it the bottle will look like it is only half filled.... it has always been packaged this way... not a clue why..... (2) the good thing is that it lasts a long time.... since you use so little of it at a clip :).........

Hope this helps
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 07 Sep 2018, 11:03

This mornings poop looked really good I think. Number 3 on the poop scale from your website (who would have thought there was a poop scale lol). No mucous. No bright yellow, No loose mushy liquidy poop. I will keep an eye on the lip smacking/licking. Of course now that youpo pointed that out I did notice it some last night. Good grief. You guys really do know what you are talking about! Thank goodness! The tracking of the B-12 package says I will have if for her dinner feeding today. Remind me how I give that. It is the on from Wonderlabs you recommended. Do I open up a capsule and put it with her food that already has the enzymes and slippery elm in it and stir it up right at the end? Is it one tablet once a day? Should I expect to see that change her poop in a bad way at first or no change to be expected? I assume it doesnt taste any worse than the other two additives we are doing which Zoe is goobling up. Also, your site says somewhere to start out feeding an underweight newly diagnosed EPI dog at 150% of what they should require at current weight. So Zoe is 60lbs. From what I googled, it seems like 4 cups per day total would be about right. Do you agree? And then would I maybe increase if I dont see her weight improving after a week or so? Thank you thank you thsnk you!!
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Riley's Mom
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Riley's Mom » 07 Sep 2018, 11:50

Hello and welcome
As far as giving the B12 capsules, some just drop it in the food and their dogs gobble it up. Some coat it in cream cheese or peanut butter and give it that way. I open the capsules and sprinkle in the food mix. My girl is super picky and she eats it fine that way.
For the dosage, as long as your pup has no other problems such as kidney issues, you could try one in each meal (you're feeding twice a day correct?). They will pee out the extra, but if Zoe has kidney problems you don't want to overload them.
As far as the amount of food, check the bag for your food. Each one is a little different, so whatever your brand recommends for your goal weight, not Zoe's current weight, then add 50% more. Once she reaches her goal weight you can gradually back down how much you give to the normal recommended amount for your particular brand of food.
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

sonjawooden
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Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 07 Sep 2018, 22:21

Thank you again everyone. So here are today's questions: 1) It was suggested by the last response on this thread to give two pills per day of the B-12. The Texas A & M EPI protocol says 1000ug a day which would be one Pet Factor B-12 capsule. So is there a reason to give two pills? 2) Based on the last three poop pics from today what would you suggest I do. Go one more day with everything the same (B-12 started tonight) and if poops look like this tomorrow again, call vet for Tylan script? Here is what we are doing as a reminder: 2 cups of Canadae Pure Chicken grain free/1 + 7/8th teaspoon Biocase enzymes/1/2 cup warm water incubated for 45 minutes then add 1/2 tsp (minus 2 pinches) Slippery Elm with 3 TBS water added and 1 Pet Factor B-12 capsule sprinkled on food (started tonight). This is the end of Day six of our EPI journey. Her poops have decreased from six or more a day to three a day. They range from light brown formed and segmented to very soft but mostly formed yellowish-brown with fluorescent yellow parts and some mucous. I havent seen any spit ups of clear liquid today. I think that summarizes everything. I will get a weight at the vet's office in the next few days. Thank you in advance. Sonja
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Today's 3rd poop
Today's 3rd poop
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Today's 2nd poop
Today's 2nd poop
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Today's 1st poop
Today's 1st poop
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My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 08 Sep 2018, 11:05

Sorry to be minute by minute updating on the poop situation but just not sure what to do other than call vet on Monday for the Tylan. At 2:40am today she had a great looking poop and then at 8:40am she had a poop with the grainy very loose cow-patty "topper" on top of a formed poop. Based on my lengthy previous post with all the details and photos of yesterday's poops, would you do anything different over the weekend before I talk to the vet on Monday? I am going to email vet now, so maybe she will get back to me sooner but who knows. Thanks. Sonja
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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My name: olesia

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Sep 2018, 11:57

Sonja,

I think you are getting there...thou maybe very slowly.... this stuff takes time especially if you go the conservative route...... HOWEVER.......... if you are not comfortable waiting any longer......... contact the vet and discuss starting Tylan.

The conservative route is a process... and it does takes time.... many times it is advisable to try this first and it will work .... BUT sometimes it just doesn't work well enough...... so it is kind of a crossroad decision for you and your vet- -if you think it is time to just start the Tylan antibiotic... or give this more time.......... talk to your vet... review ALL the history as each of these dogs are individuals..... and PLEASE let us know what you and your vet decide.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 08 Sep 2018, 13:12

Olesia,
Thank you for the support. I am comfortable waiting a few more days and will also see what vet's response is. So for now, do you think I should still keep the enzymes to 1 and 7/8th teaspoon per 2 cups of food and the slippery elm dose at 1/2 teaspoon minus two pinches or would you increase either of those? We initially decreased both of those initially due to off and on not so good poos but that is still the case so I'm not sure how you decide.
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9 am poo today
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3am poo last night
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My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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