Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 11 Dec 2018, 12:46

Jean,
We are giving more Tylan than the initial recommendations on your site with Olesia’s help since Zoe was still having SID symptoms on lower dose and we also divide her doses in all three meals to help out too, again based on Olesia’s suggestions as seen on the previous posts here.

I would love for someone to help resolve a debate my husband and I are having. When I mentioned the posibility of decreasing her feedings to twice a day in the future he expressed great concern that her stomach acid could become a problem and give her ulcers. He is under the impression that the enzymes themselves are acidic since dogs have issues with mouth sores and we all do things to prevent them like spraying their mouths with water after eating etc. He also worries that the Tylan is like human antibiotics and therefore rough on the stomach. Are either of these things correct? Thanks.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 11 Dec 2018, 13:58

now I understand

this is a lnk about Tylan

https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

I have always cosidered Tylan as a gentle antibiotic, Kara has taken it for nearly 8 years, and does have on occasion acid reflux, but it is very rare now, and it is a very underused drug in UK, as it s difficult to persuade vets to prescribe

I am afraid I dont know too much about US enzymes as I am from the UK but Olesia will be around

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 11 Dec 2018, 18:58

for Zoe's family debaters :)

1. He is under the impression that the enzymes themselves are acidic since dogs have issues with mouth sores and we all do things to prevent them like spraying their mouths with water after eating etc.

The enzymes we give our dog (powder form) are destroyed (if i remember correctly) by approximately 70% or so ...on it's way thru the digestive system due to the dog's digestive pH. Very little (but thankfully enough) hits the system in time to work it's magic in the digestive process and process the nutrients from the food accordingly. BUT when the dog eats the food with the enzymes mixed in.... when it first hit's the mouth.... 70% or so of it is not yet destroyed by the dog's digestive pH ... and some "extra-sensitive" dogs to the caustic properties of the enzymes may develop mouth sores... This is why we suggest incubating and sometimes even incubating is not enough and with a few dogs, their mouths have to be rinses out. But the caustic properties are far removed once in the digestive system.


2, decreasing her feedings to twice a day in the future he expressed great concern that her stomach acid could become a problem and give her ulcers.

Most likely not, but an empty stomach for too long in some dogs will give acid...if this is going to happen, you will see it first thing in the morning because the time between dinner and breakfast was too long.
Will it create ulcers... no

The other thing is that we always refer to this on the forum or just in general chit-chat as "acid" or "acid reflux".... but there really is more to this story....yes, some dog do develop real acid reflux from too much acid in the stomach, however more often than not, this "acid" is not real acid-reflux but rather an acid event caused by not enough of the right kind of acid in the gut.... this is much more common with these dogs, and this often happens because of SID (small intestinal dysbiosis).

the other thing that is going on is much more complicated. Above and beyond what i mentioned above, all EPI dogs have an issue to one degree or another with their bile.... whether we notice anything amiss or not.... it is part of the EPI condition. Bile and EPI is an interesting read and pops up a lot in Dr. Suchodolski work with EPI. If you and your husband would like to read the nitty gritty details, there is a ton of info about this in EPI dogs in the research sections on this website... specifically check out the microbiome research, the EPI research, the SID research.... you'll see what i am getting at. i know when i try to explain too much, (i tend to go on and on and on ) people's eyes glaze over....................... so i prefer to jsut direct folks to the research for the nitty gritty details. :)

3. Tylan
Well..... it's like pick your poison.....and Tylan is the most mild. It is a macrolide antibiotic... in short, it does not kill all the bacteria good/bad... but rather (in simple terms) it inhibits the bacteria from reproducing. It also appears to work better in the small intestine where as other antibiotic like metro works more in the large intestine. Not that either will not work on the opposite, it is jsut that Tylan is more prone to being effective in the small intestine.

On the Sid antibioitic page if you scroll down, there is a good general description of Tylan, i am cutting and pasting it here for your husband... hopefully this answers his questions about Tylan:

Tylosin

Tylosin is a macrolide-class broad spectrum antibiotic that’s used in veterinary medicine to treat felines, canines and livestock. However, the drug is only used as an antibiotic in the treatment of infections in livestock. In cats, dogs, and other smaller animals, it is used predominantly for its anti-inflammatory properties to treat inflammatory conditions in the bowel. As such, it is commonly prescribed to pets that are suffering from diarrhea.

How Tylosin Treats Inflammatory Conditions

Tylosin’s strong anti-inflammatory properties come from it being made from natural bacteria. The drug works by interfering with the protein-manufacturing abilities of other bacteria, and it does this while not impacting the patient’s own ability to manufacture protein. Because Tylosin is a bacteriostatic antibiotic, it doesn’t kill off the bacteria in the patient’s bowel, it simply prevents it from growing and reproducing. By limiting the growth of the bacteria, the drug helps the patient to manage the infection using his or her own immune system.

Potential Side Effects of Tylosin

Tylosin is usually very well tolerated, especially among canines, so it hasn’t been found to have a serious potential for side effects. The most common side effects reported include pain at the injection site (when Tylosin is used as an injectible for respiratory infections only), anorexia, and diarrhea (when Tylosin is used as a powder for GI infections). This drug can also cause a patient’s liver blood tests (ALT and AST) to be falsely elevated.

Tylosin Precautions & Drug Interactions

Tylosin, while shown to be safe for dogs, cats, livestock, ferrets, rabbits, birds, reptiles and even pocket pets, should not be prescribed to horses. It should be used with extreme caution in patients that are pregnant or lactating, as it has not been fully studied in that regard.

This medication is very similar to erythromycin, and as a result, if the patient is already on erythromycin, Tylosin should not be used, as cross-resistance has been shown to occur. Tylosin has also been shown to increase digoxin blood levels. Therefore, if the patient is already taking digoxin for a cardiac condition, then Tylosin should not be prescribed.
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 11 Dec 2018, 22:35

Oh my. You are so kind and sweet to provide all of this information. I will let my husband peruse all that you provided! Thanks again. Sonja
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Posts: 572
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 12 Dec 2018, 03:16

Its what we are here for

and we all learn day by day

I intend to keep Olesias answer somewhere safe, and it might be worth putting the explanation somewhere on the website, if its not already there

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Posts: 893
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Dec 2018, 10:27

Sonja,

I am very impressed with your husband's concerns..... Zoe sure is very lucky to have both of you as her human parents!!!!
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
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State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Madelon » 12 Dec 2018, 13:56

Zoe is one lucky pup to have such amazing humans caring for her!!
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 28 Apr 2019, 23:59

Hello,
Long time no "see". Wanted to show you some before and after pics of Zoe. We have been treating her for EPI now for eight months now. She was 60 lbs at the start and now is at 92lbs. Yikes. We just cut her food back another 1/2 cup after last weigh in. Besides her weight, you'll notice in the pics her fur is much fluffier and healthier, and her tail went from a rat's tail to a fox tail (the first picture below) (not sure why it is sideways, feel free to fix if you can)! Yay! Thank you for all your support. Sonja
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My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Jean
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Posts: 572
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 29 Apr 2019, 03:30

O wow Sonya

these would be perfect for our before, and after pictures on the web site if thats ok with you

keep up the good work and thanks for sharing

j
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules


Jeanx

User avatar
Madelon
President
Posts: 552
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Madelon » 29 Apr 2019, 07:49

WOW - what an amazing transformation!! Thank you for sharing these pictures - it's truly remarkable to see the before pictures and in just a short while after the proper protocol see the after pictures where they are so healthy and happy. Great job on managing Zoe's EPI - keep it up :)
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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