Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
sonjawooden
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 16 Nov 2018, 09:58

Thank you. I needed some guidance. I appreciate the details and I will follow your advice. I plan to have her B-12 level redrawn at the four month mark because that is what the Texas A & M protocol recommends after treating orally with B-12 for 4 months. She takes it daily based on their dosage recommendations. As always thank you.
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 943
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 16 Nov 2018, 19:51

You are more than welcome and please keep us posted :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Jean
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Posts: 736
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 17 Nov 2018, 10:56

its what we are here for

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 04 Dec 2018, 13:00

Hello again. So asking for another recommendation on Tylan dose. I am including a pic of Zoe's poop as I know how much all EPI folks love poop. You will see that is is very firm (a 2 on your poop chart), shiny but no visible mucous, and is a mixture of dark brown with some light brown pieces. For a reference, her dog kibble is dark brown. This is what her poop looks like at least half the time and sometimes the majority of the time, with her other poops being all one color of dark brown. To save you time from having to reread 10 pages of this forum post, a summary is this: Diagnosed with epic on Aug 30. Enzyme treatment started Sept. 1. Tylan 1/4 tsp twice a day started Oct. 8. Act. 31 increased Tylan to 1/2 tsp twice a day. Nov. 17th increased Tylan total dose and increased frequency to three times a day (Total daily dose 1 1/4 tsp, which is 5/12 tsp three times a day). And this is where we are at three week later. So you had recommended to complete another 45 days this increased dose and we are half way through. Should we keep the course or increase more? What do you think of her poop? What if it doesn't change does it really matter? Is the assumption that she is feeling sick or having stomach pain if her poop looks like this and therefore, we need to continue figuring things out? She doesn't seem to feel sick or be in pain. She is active and playful, has reached her goal weight and we lowered her to a maintenance food amount, her fur has come back soft, thick, and fluffy. Thanks, Sonja
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Zoe's poop
Zoe's poop
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My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 943
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Dec 2018, 23:32

gotta love the poop pictures.....

well... i would say this is pretty darn good poo... although not 110% perfect with the slightly shiny and bits of yellow.... this is still good poo . I would not increase the Tylan but continue on it.

You only have to be concerned about the shine and the yellow bits if this continues/happens more frequently and/or if the poo starts deteriorating over time....

IMHO.... you are doing good :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 05 Dec 2018, 11:40

Thank you again. So I will plan to finish this second 45 days of Tylan which has about three weeks left. Can you give me some guidelines on how best to wean her off as you have discussed in the past working better than stopping cold turkey. Some specific details like how much to lower the dose over what time frame would be great. Thank you thank you!
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 943
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2018, 11:57

Sure.
once you hit the 45th day.....going forward
for the very next week- - give 1/2 tylan dose breakfast & dinner
for the week after - - give 1/2 tylan dose once a day
for the final week - - give 1/2 tylan dose every other day

stop and keep paws and fingers crossed. Hopefully this works... if the SID rears its head again in a short time frame.... then you might have to keep you dog on a small maintenance dose forever or for a long time................but let's not worry about this unless you have to
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

sonjawooden
Member
Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Colorado

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by sonjawooden » 10 Dec 2018, 19:33

Olesia,

A few more questions. Zoe hit her goal weight of 77 lbs (from 60 lbs) Oct 31, 2018. We decreased her food according to the dog food instructions to maintain at this weight. We thought she was getting a bit chunky so we weighed her today and she is now 84.6 lbs. We are currently feeding her Sport Dog Food which we started giving three times a day (instead of 2) after three weeks of treatment (Sept 24th) to try to help firm up her poops and decrease probable SID symptoms and based on your recommendations. As discussed on the forum a week ago (with lovely poop pics), we have about 3 weeks left of our second round of Tylan and then plan to wean over the next three weeks as you outlined below. We currently are giving her 1.5 cups in the morning, 1 cup in the evening, and 1 cup midnight snack. Would you suggest cutting out 1/2 cup of food a day or maybe 1 cup? Do you think in the future if she continues to stabilize after weaning the Tylan which we also divide into her three meals, that we might be able to go back to two feedings a day? Or do lots of EPI dogs continue to need three feedings a day for a lifetime? Sure wouldn't mind if we could move to two feedings a day sometime in the future. Thank you!
My name is Sonja. Zoe is a 3 y/o female German Shepherd. Dx 8/30/18. Weighed 60 pounds at dx and now weighs 66.6 pounds (after 19 days of treatment). Sport Dog Food Whitefish formula 2 cups 2 times a day. Currently using Bio Case enzymes 1 7/8 teaspoon per 2 cups of food 2 times a day, but will be switching to Enzyme Diane's 6x when we run out. Add slightly less than 1/2 teaspoon Slippery Elm to each feeding (2x/day) and 1000 mg of B-12 PetFactor once a day added to dinner.

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 736
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Jean » 11 Dec 2018, 03:27

we have never been able to wean Kara off Tylan, she has the minutest dose now once a day, probably 1/16th teaspoon, you can get that measurement spoon on line at Amazon, its a bakers measurement

can I confirm you give Tylan twice daily, and at 77 pounds 1/4 teaspoon

as for meals we started at 5 per day, now 2, it really depends on if she is hungry, we used to take Kara out for a walk to take her mind off food

the only way, is to try reducing feeds

let us know and you are doing brilliantly
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 943
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Zoe, spitting up clear liquid

Post by Olesia711 » 11 Dec 2018, 10:36

Hi,

84lbs, eh??!!! Sounds like she sure is a tad "extra healthy"..... or what i used to refer to with my Izzy as "pleasantly plump"

Okay... i would be conservative in the beginning when reducing the food..... since you are feeding 3+1/2 cups daily...... reduce the food by only 1/2 cup a day. Give this at least 2 weeks time to get a good assessment if this is sufficient. I suspect it will be. With EPI dogs, you don't want them way overweight, but just a few extra pounds is okay....since they can always have a set back and lose weight rather rapidly...........

What you don't want to do is reduce too much and then you have to go back to putting on the weight... And you also don't want to reduce too quickly.

Next... reducing the amount of meals. Since Zoe has already :

1. gained back her lost weight AND exceeded the goal..... :)
2. and is delivering nice normal poos now.... as soon as this happens pretty consistently for about 3 to 4 weeks..... THEN YES..... try reducing her meals to only twice a day. But then watch the poos to make sure her tummy can handle the "slightly more food per meal since now you are only feeding twice instead of 3 times"

Keep us posted !
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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