Dog not responding after 5 months
- Olesia711
- Founder & Research Director
- Posts: 3929
- Location: North Carolina
- Country: United States
- State: North Carolina
- Pet name: Izzy
- My name: olesia
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
Ahh coconut oil... like Madelon said, get extra virgin organic or it is sometimes labeled cold pressed. And just a note of clarification... normally it is a very soft white paste like "solid" substance... BUT... if the room temp gets rather warm, it will turn into a liquid... as soon as the room temp gets a little cooler, it will get back to being a solid.
I personally used Jarrow's that i ordered on line:
https://jarrow.com/products/coconut-oil ... G6EALw_wcB
YOu can get it from here, Amazon, Swansons, etc..
I personally used Jarrow's that i ordered on line:
https://jarrow.com/products/coconut-oil ... G6EALw_wcB
YOu can get it from here, Amazon, Swansons, etc..
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........
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- Member
- Posts: 13
- Country: United States
- State: Kentucky
- Pet name: Sarge
- My name: Barb
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
Sarge got his tli, b12 and a couple of other blood tests on Wednesday so I will post the results when I get them. His stool has been formed and brown for a few weeks now, but he is still losing weight. My vet wants me to increase his food (which I have) so now his stools are larger, but I'm hoping that is due to the increase of food. My next question is, can I give him slippery elm and Proviable-DC together? The vet thinks he may also need the probiotic to help with weight and is not wanting to give him antibiotics for SID at the moment (he's not sure that he has SID). I'm still giving 1 B12 capsule every 3 days, so I don't want to give too many things that could cause him to go back to bad stools. Thanks for any input on this.
- Olesia711
- Founder & Research Director
- Posts: 3929
- Location: North Carolina
- Country: United States
- State: North Carolina
- Pet name: Izzy
- My name: olesia
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
Glad to hear that the stools are looking good... but since the volume has increased with more food... #1 try giving just a pinch more enzymes then what you normally would with the increased amount of food... a little extra enzymes might help with the volume and allow the body to better absorb the nutrients from the extra food. Try this for 3 to 5 days and let us know if it helps.... before trying anything else
After you try the extra pinch of enzymes and can ascertain whether it helps or not.... #2 then YES! your vet is correct to recommend Proviable 1st.... and YES you can give Proviable and Slippery Elm together... BUT.... as trying all things with EPI... best to add only 1 thing at a time, see how it goes and then add the next thing. SO.... what i would do is next try adding Proviable.... give this about a few weeks and record if you see any improvement or not......and then add in the Slippery Elm and give the combo of Proviable and Slippery Elm a few days given together and assess and record the results. UNLESS of course, if Sarge is already on SLippery ELm... then just go ahead and add the Proviable, give it a few weeks and assess and record results.
Oh... with regards to Proviable or ANY probitoic.... ALWAYS start off with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. The reason why we suggest this is because many dogs have diarrhea/loose stools when starting on a probiotic... something you really don't want to deal with with an EPI dog.... so it tends to go better with a lot of EPI dogs by starting off slowly with a probiotic.
Keep us posted please!
After you try the extra pinch of enzymes and can ascertain whether it helps or not.... #2 then YES! your vet is correct to recommend Proviable 1st.... and YES you can give Proviable and Slippery Elm together... BUT.... as trying all things with EPI... best to add only 1 thing at a time, see how it goes and then add the next thing. SO.... what i would do is next try adding Proviable.... give this about a few weeks and record if you see any improvement or not......and then add in the Slippery Elm and give the combo of Proviable and Slippery Elm a few days given together and assess and record the results. UNLESS of course, if Sarge is already on SLippery ELm... then just go ahead and add the Proviable, give it a few weeks and assess and record results.
Oh... with regards to Proviable or ANY probitoic.... ALWAYS start off with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. The reason why we suggest this is because many dogs have diarrhea/loose stools when starting on a probiotic... something you really don't want to deal with with an EPI dog.... so it tends to go better with a lot of EPI dogs by starting off slowly with a probiotic.
Keep us posted please!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........
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- Member
- Posts: 1377
- Country: United States
- State: Florida
- Pet name: Tucker
- My name: Pam H.
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
Doesn't the most current research conclude that all EPI dogs have SID?
Is there an article she can show her vet?---P
Is there an article she can show her vet?---P
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.
- Olesia711
- Founder & Research Director
- Posts: 3929
- Location: North Carolina
- Country: United States
- State: North Carolina
- Pet name: Izzy
- My name: olesia
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
yes, they now know, that to Dr. SUchodolski at Texas A&M for his wonderful research on EPI dogs that they ALL do have SID.... our goal nowadays is to keep it under as best control as we can.
If you go to the SID Research tab
https://epi4dogs.com/sid-sibo-microbiome-research/ ... there is a 2017 Abstract there
June 2017
Epi4Dogs collaborated and co-authored with Texas A&M Gastrointestinal Lab on TWO research projects.
Abstracts below:
1. Dogs with Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency have Dysbiosis and Abnormal Fecal Lactate and Bile Acid Concentrations
A.B. Blake1, B.C. Guard1, J.B. Honneffer1, F.G. Kumro1, O.C. Kennedy2, J.A. Lidbury3, J.M. Steiner1, J.S. Suchodolski3
1Gastrointestinal Laboratory, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, College station, Texas, USA, College Station, TX, USA, 2Epi4Dogs Foundation, Inc., Farmville, VA, Farmville, VA, USA, 3Gastrointestinal Laboratory, Texas A&M University, College station, TX, USA
It has been reported that dogs with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) commonly have intestinal dysbiosis. However, the effects of EPI on microbial metabolism are poorly understood. The aim of this study was to compare fecal dysbiosis as well as fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs.
Fecal samples were collected from eleven dogs with EPI that had not received antibiotics for at least 3 weeks and had been on enzyme supplementation for 0.5–10 years (median 5 years). Fecal samples from healthy dogs (n = 18), collected for three consecutive days and pooled, served as control samples. DNA was extracted and analyzed by qPCR for selected bacterial groups and data expressed as Dysbiosis Index (as previously reported). Fecal lactate was measured by enzymatic methods (D-/L-lactic acid kit, R-Biopharm) and bile acids were quantified with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry from lyophilized feces. The Mann-Whitney U test was used to compare the Dysbiosis Index and fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs. Correlations were assessed using Spearman’s correlation coefficient and significance was set at P < 0.05.
Dogs with EPI had a higher Dysbiosis Index (median [min-max]: +3.08 [−7.29 to +7.62]) than healthy control dogs (−3.81 [−7.57 to +3.32]; P = 0.0232). Total fecal lactate concentrations were increased in dogs with EPI (3.44 mM [0.71–158.30 mM]) compared to healthy control dogs (1.14 mM [0.54–6.64 mM]; P = 0.0037). The proportion of secondary bile acid was lower in dogs with EPI (70% [6–96%]) compared to healthy control dogs (93% [12–97%]; P = 0.0431). There was no correlation between any measurements and duration of enzyme therapy.
In conclusion, this study identified differences in the fecal microbiota as well as fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs.
If you go to the SID Research tab
https://epi4dogs.com/sid-sibo-microbiome-research/ ... there is a 2017 Abstract there
June 2017
Epi4Dogs collaborated and co-authored with Texas A&M Gastrointestinal Lab on TWO research projects.
Abstracts below:
1. Dogs with Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency have Dysbiosis and Abnormal Fecal Lactate and Bile Acid Concentrations
A.B. Blake1, B.C. Guard1, J.B. Honneffer1, F.G. Kumro1, O.C. Kennedy2, J.A. Lidbury3, J.M. Steiner1, J.S. Suchodolski3
1Gastrointestinal Laboratory, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, College station, Texas, USA, College Station, TX, USA, 2Epi4Dogs Foundation, Inc., Farmville, VA, Farmville, VA, USA, 3Gastrointestinal Laboratory, Texas A&M University, College station, TX, USA
It has been reported that dogs with exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) commonly have intestinal dysbiosis. However, the effects of EPI on microbial metabolism are poorly understood. The aim of this study was to compare fecal dysbiosis as well as fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs.
Fecal samples were collected from eleven dogs with EPI that had not received antibiotics for at least 3 weeks and had been on enzyme supplementation for 0.5–10 years (median 5 years). Fecal samples from healthy dogs (n = 18), collected for three consecutive days and pooled, served as control samples. DNA was extracted and analyzed by qPCR for selected bacterial groups and data expressed as Dysbiosis Index (as previously reported). Fecal lactate was measured by enzymatic methods (D-/L-lactic acid kit, R-Biopharm) and bile acids were quantified with gas chromatography/mass spectrometry from lyophilized feces. The Mann-Whitney U test was used to compare the Dysbiosis Index and fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs. Correlations were assessed using Spearman’s correlation coefficient and significance was set at P < 0.05.
Dogs with EPI had a higher Dysbiosis Index (median [min-max]: +3.08 [−7.29 to +7.62]) than healthy control dogs (−3.81 [−7.57 to +3.32]; P = 0.0232). Total fecal lactate concentrations were increased in dogs with EPI (3.44 mM [0.71–158.30 mM]) compared to healthy control dogs (1.14 mM [0.54–6.64 mM]; P = 0.0037). The proportion of secondary bile acid was lower in dogs with EPI (70% [6–96%]) compared to healthy control dogs (93% [12–97%]; P = 0.0431). There was no correlation between any measurements and duration of enzyme therapy.
In conclusion, this study identified differences in the fecal microbiota as well as fecal lactate and bile acid concentrations between dogs with EPI and healthy control dogs.
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........
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- Member
- Posts: 13
- Country: United States
- State: Kentucky
- Pet name: Sarge
- My name: Barb
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
My vet just called with Sarge's test results. Everything except the TLI was within normal range. His cobalamin is 547, his TLI is 1.0. So now it is confirmed EPI. I am going to start him on Proviable DC tonight. I will try to give him only half the capsule as directed although this may be a little challenging to only sprinkle half the small capsule. I'm not sure about continuing the 1 B12 capsule every 3 days, but I guess it won't hurt. He is getting 1/2 tsp. slippery elm once a day just to keep the stomach rumbles away. So, any advise now that the test results are in would be welcome. My vet's biggest concern is his weight, but he wants to see if the probiotics help. He also knows that weight gain may take some time.
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- Member
- Posts: 13
- Country: United States
- State: Kentucky
- Pet name: Sarge
- My name: Barb
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
I have a question about probiotics. I am giving Sarge Proviable capsules once a day as required. I open the capsule and sprinkle it on his food just before feeding. My first question is, does the enzymes have any effect on the probiotic granules like making them less potent. Second, would it be better to get the pills and just put the pill in the food or feed it separately. He looks as though he's beginning to gain a little weight now and his stools have been decent, although morning stools seem to be too large in volumn, but that could be because he's gone longer between eliminations. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
I have the same question as well, "How and when to administer Proviable DC capsules?".barbhamon@gmail.com wrote: ↑03 Dec 2021, 13:42 I have a question about probiotics. I am giving Sarge Proviable capsules once a day as required. I open the capsule and sprinkle it on his food just before feeding. My first question is, does the enzymes have any effect on the probiotic granules like making them less potent. Second, would it be better to get the pills and just put the pill in the food or feed it separately.
- With whole capsules vs sprinkle
- Soak the bowl with enzymes or put it in at the last minute before the dog eats his meal?
- Can you give Tylan at the same time or do you need to wait a few hours?
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- Member
- Posts: 157
- Country: United States
- Pet name: Clyde
- My name: Jane
Re: Dog not responding after 5 months
The probiotics should be given a few hours apart from antibiotics. If given close together, the antiobiotics can kill the probiotics.
As for how to administer the probiotics, honestly I'm not sure if there is a "best" way. I open the capsule and sprinkle it on just before serving. I seem to remember that there is a slight advantage to the sprinkling method due to how dogs digest capsules and the pH of their digestive systems, but I could be completely wrong about that. I know people who give the capsules whole, and their dogs do just fine. I, too, wasn't sure whether soaking the probiotics with the enzymes would cause any problems, so I just sprinkle right before serving to avoid any possibilities of that happening. I'm kind of forgetful, so when preparing the food, I put Clyde's probiotic and B12 capsule next to his bowl so that I see them when I come back to serve it.
This method seems to be working for Clyde. So far, I have been lucky enough to avoid using antibiotics.
As for how to administer the probiotics, honestly I'm not sure if there is a "best" way. I open the capsule and sprinkle it on just before serving. I seem to remember that there is a slight advantage to the sprinkling method due to how dogs digest capsules and the pH of their digestive systems, but I could be completely wrong about that. I know people who give the capsules whole, and their dogs do just fine. I, too, wasn't sure whether soaking the probiotics with the enzymes would cause any problems, so I just sprinkle right before serving to avoid any possibilities of that happening. I'm kind of forgetful, so when preparing the food, I put Clyde's probiotic and B12 capsule next to his bowl so that I see them when I come back to serve it.
This method seems to be working for Clyde. So far, I have been lucky enough to avoid using antibiotics.
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