New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Jane&Clyde
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Posts: 124
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Jane&Clyde » 13 Dec 2021, 15:05

Thanks so much for answering my questions! That sure sounds like SID .

Have you seen the poop chart that is linked at the bottom of the page under EPI Quick Links? Harmony should have poops that are at least a 3, and often dogs with EPI can achieve a 2. When the poops aren't that good even with Tylan, it usually means that the food isn't optimal for that particular dog, and I suspect that this is the case for Harmony.

Please remove the rice from Harmony's diet. Grains of any sort can interfere with how the enzymes work by up to 50%, so all grains should be avoided. Also, the pumpkin should be limited to no more than a teaspoon or so, otherwise it provides too much fiber. For that same reason, I wouldn't give any pumpkin if you decide to try Slippery Elm. We recommend only one at a time.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea to add foods in addition to the dry dog food. However, the type of food you add really matters for a dog with EPI. I would suggest adding the green beans that you used to add, or meat, or an egg, or cottage cheese.

The very first changes that I suggest you make are to Harmony's diet, even before trying slippery elm or a probiotic. Basically, if the food isn't right for your particular dog, the other things aren't going to be able to control the EPI/SID.

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Jean » 14 Dec 2021, 05:29

Good morning from the UK

I have speed read through and am suprised about Tylan but there you go

My girl was intolerant of most proteins, lamb was the only one

Rice in dog food can cause gas, it ferments, and turns to sugar so my vet told me, so maybe the food you chose is not working

we went through I dont know how many dog foods
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

ssmith
Member
Posts: 29
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Harmony

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by ssmith » 14 Dec 2021, 18:33

Thank you guys for your help!

I had kinda wondered if the rice and pumpkin were causing the issue and I actually planned on trying without it. My vet said she needed lots of fiber to bulk up her stool but it seemed no matter how much fiber she got she still struggled with mushy poop. I will definitely not give rice for a while to see what happens and cut the pumpkin amount.

She has definitely not made it easy to figure out her "formula" but we will keep playing with the food until we figure her out :)

Jane&Clyde
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Posts: 124
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Jane&Clyde » 14 Dec 2021, 19:11

Great! Let us know how she does.

Your vet's advice about the fiber was exactly right for most dogs. However, for dogs with EPI, it usually works the opposite. The more fiber you give, the worse the stools will be.

ssmith
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Posts: 29
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Harmony

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by ssmith » 19 Dec 2021, 22:42

I have not been giving Harmony any rice, and I started her on slippery elm. Her stool was actually pretty normal this morning. I'm quite impressed, and I think she will be much improved in a couple more weeks doing the same thing. I think we may have found her regimen.

Here is everything she is getting:
2 cups of food (taste of the wild) morning and night
1 spoonful of pumkin morning and night
1/2 tsp of slippery elm morning and night
2 tsp of pacreatic enzymes morning and night
folic acid and B12 pills at night

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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My name: olesia

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Olesia711 » 19 Dec 2021, 23:10

sounds like a good menu... glad to hear that the poos improved..... hopefully this will continue.
Remember to keep/record a log/notes (even pictures) of this.... sometimes we "think" we are going to remember all the details as the days go by, but we don't..............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 124
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Jane&Clyde » 20 Dec 2021, 13:05

I'm so glad things have improved! If poops return to normal, that would be great. But, if they remain almost, but not quite, where they should be, I would suggest you try removing the pumpkin, too.

ssmith
Member
Posts: 29
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Harmony

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by ssmith » 03 Jan 2022, 14:05

I just wanted to give an update on Harmony. She is doing well, but we are still playing with things to try and figure her out. I realized a couple weeks ago that the scoop for her enzymes was not an actual teaspoon. She has not been getting near enough enzymes and I think that is a major problem. I feel so dumb not actually measuring it to see how much each "scoop" was with the scoop that comes in the bottle. But we are switching to Bio Case enzymes and she will be getting the proper dose when they come in 2 days.

As for her diet, she is still on slippery elm, a touch of pumpkin, taste of the wild, and her B12 and Folic acid supplements. She is at 49.1 pounds as of today at the vet and is as crazy as ever.

We are leaving town without our sweet girls (we also have one of Harmony's sisters named Tsunami) and our amazing neighbor is going to be caring for them. She has two shepherds of her own and was happy to watch them. I have a little anxiety about leaving my girl but my neighbor is coming over multiple times this week to practice all her meal time care to make sure she gets it right before I'm not there to help. I think she will do great but it's a little hard leaving Harmony when she isn't super stable yet.

Also while at the vet today I told them about her rash being completely gone after stopping the Tylan powder for a few weeks. They were shocked and said that has never happened but glad to know what the cause was.

Thank you guys for all of your help! This has been the absolute best source of information about all things EPI!!

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
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My name: olesia

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Jan 2022, 16:36

thanks for the update and oh yeah... not enough enzymes could very well be the bottom line of the issues...
Glad you figured it out.... and trust me, you are not the first person to assume those little included measuring scoops are not the best tool to use!

Now that you know you need to up the enzyme dose, hope you see even more improvement. And please keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 124
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New Diagnosis and Treament Not Working

Post by Jane&Clyde » 03 Jan 2022, 16:49

That's wonderful that you have figured out the reason why Harmony hasn't stabilized yet! Please don't beat yourself up too badly. It's easy to look back and ask yourself why you didn't notice something earlier. But, the most important thing is that you learned enough about EPI to know where the problem might be, and you investigated enough to find the answer. Great job!

I understand how you might be feeling a little leery of leaving Harmony (and her sister) with someone while you are gone. It sounds like the neighbor is being terrific about learning the routine. Things will probably be just fine. But, in the worst case scenario that something gets out of whack, whether from a mistake by the neighbor or simply from the stress of the change with you being gone, you should feel good that you know how to get Harmony back on track.

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