New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Post Reply
User avatar
Momzworkin
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: Kansas
Pet name: Sophie
My name: Michelle

New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Momzworkin » 18 Oct 2021, 17:08

Hi Everyone,
My name is Michelle and my husband and I have several doggos, but Sophie, our sweet dachshund has just been diagnosed with EPI.

It started about a year ago. We took her to the "dogtor" a specialist, who put her on Hills Science Diet Z/D with probiotics and a weeks worth of Panecur, but didn't recommend a follow up appointment. Sophie is sneaky and will help herself to her brother's food - we get them prescription food for senior dogs IVet. https://ivet.com/

We just started on the Panecur again, this time getting the large bottle from Chewy (approved by the vet, of course) and Sophie doesn't like it on dry kibble only, but when I add some canned Z/D food to the mix she is all in. We followed directions, and I think it is too early to expect perfect poos, but my question is why her flares are only every now and then? This is the 2nd time she has lost a few pounds (she is standard size and normally weighs 20-22 pounds) though she would have softer "Sophie-poos" now and then, but never consistently - just now and then. We just thought that was how her process was since it didn't happen often. We try to stay on top of the dogs when they eat to make sure they aren't eating each other's food, but nobody is perfect, and Sophie gets some IVet Senior now and then. Gibson, our chiweenie, gets her Z/D now and then.

Will eating a little bit of her food with the enzymes make Gibson sick? Will it actually harm him? We are talking at most a 1/4 cup of food. Below are Sophie and Gibson. I am waiting for my vet to call back with more info - it just seems, from reading a lot of posts, that Sophie isn't getting enough treatment, such as B12. She is also on the antibiotic you guys say is the wrong one - starts with Meth??? (oh crap, my dog is on meth....... just kidding...as much poo as we have to scrape up we need a sense of humor!)
soph.gib.jpg
soph.gib.jpg (85.58 KiB) Viewed 1136 times
Momzworkin
Doggo Mom to Rocky the Chug 12yrs, collapsed trachea, floating patella, osteoarthritis and just plain grumpy
Gibson (Gibby) the Chiweenie 14 yrs, CHF, Cushing survivor, my soul-doggy
Sophie the Dorkshund 4 yrs - EPI baby, little doggo love of my life
Grandoogo Mom to Bella the Border Collie - she was raised with mine and thinks she is also a small dog :D

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 18 Oct 2021, 18:33

Hi Michelle, and welcome to you and your family.

Panacur is for parasites, right? EPI is a condition involving the pancreas, so panacur won't help.

Has your pup been given the fasting blood test as part of his diagnosis?
(lemme jump right in and say, a little enzyme now & then isn't going to hurt his brother) (Also, look into enzymediane, so much cheaper!)

There are four cornerstones to EPI treatment---

1) diet---preferably grain-free & less than 4% fiber, with no legumes or white potatoes, both of which which have given grain-free a bad name.

2) enzymes---1 teaspoon per 1 cup of dry food, moisten & let sit for 20-30 minutes...your addition of canned food should be fine, as long as you adjust to the right amount of enzymes, 3/4 teaspoon per cup. It sounds like you are just adding a dollop, so I'm thinking you shouldn't stress over exact measurements for that.

3)B12---many of us use Wonderlabs Intrinsic Factor, bought directly from the company or on Amazon

4) SID--small intestinal dysbiosis, and yes you are receiving the wrong antibiotic. See if your vet will switch to Tylan. There is also the option of trying slippery elm (Wonderlabs or NOW brand)

So this is all about treatment for EPI, and though you seem to have a good start in some respects, I'm not sure you are giving him enzymes. Can you please clarify this? I searched for panecur, but it kept correcting to panacur. Maybe I'm just confused! (and, yes, a sense of humor is critical with these lovely dogs who have decided to become ours)

My dog has the occasional bad day, too, but when he gets a few in a row & starts tooting, I know his SID is flaring. I'll include a couple of links to help get you started, and I encourage you to keep asking questions. We all love to help each other

---Pam & Tucker
Last edited by Tuckaboo Pam on 18 Oct 2021, 18:47, edited 3 times in total.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 18 Oct 2021, 18:37

Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Olesia711 » 18 Oct 2021, 20:06

OMG... we have a "meth head" pup on board ..... :lol: .... just kidding.. thanks Michelle for giving me a good chuckle over that. Yes Metronidazole (Flagyl) is the wrong antibiotic to give an EPI dog for SID.... call your vet and ask him/her to swap out the metro for TYlan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder 100 grams).

To answer your question..... if a non-EPI dog sneaks in a few bites of food with enzymes in it.... no it will not hurt them.... you just don't want to give enzymed food (long term) to a dog that does not have EPI.....

And it won't seriously "hurt" Sophie to eat un-enzymed food ( if just a bite here or there) BUT if she is always getting in to it ... it will interfere with her getting better. So you really don't want her to do this...

So... Sophie only has an occasional crappy stool.... consider yourself (and Sophie ) LUCKY!!!!!!!!!!! THere are actually cases of some (very few) EPI dogs that don't even have loose stools, they just lose weight.... but whatever you do.. please continue to give her pancreatic enzymes.

NOW... as Pam questioned.... you keep mentioning Panacur..... do you mean Pancrezyme... as Panacur is for parasites.... what you need to treat EPI is pancreatic enzymes.... and there is a huge list of pancreatic enzymes. The criteria though is to ALWAYS get pig pancreas enzymes NOT plant enzymes. Many of use use ENzymeDiane (no prescription needed) https://enzymediane.com/

Please clarify with us that you are using porcine pancreatic enzymes....and if you can share with us the TLI test results confirming EPI, that would be great. Some dogs are borderline ....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Momzworkin
Member
Posts: 2
Country: United States
State: Kansas
Pet name: Sophie
My name: Michelle

Re: New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Momzworkin » 19 Oct 2021, 11:06

PancrePlus! https://www.chewy.com/pancreplus-powder ... DMQAvD_BwE

Not sure where I got Panecur either - I know we have it at the house but it was for the chiweenie, Gibson, who eats like a garbage can, when he gets the occasional gastric upset.

She had some fluffy pancake poo at 2:00am this morning, cuz guess who stepped in it??? MEEEEEE!!! Better me than my husband tho - :roll: I don't even want to think what a tantrum that would have been.

Talked to the vet about 5 minutes after original post and he said her Cobalamin was 434, so he didn't think she needed supplementation at this point. He said the same as you all on how to feed her the enzymes. When we run low on this I will try the Dianne kind. She has only been on the therapy since Sunday. The vet said to give it to her for 7 days, and if her stools aren't firming up to bring her back in. He was so understanding about me doing research online and gave me his g-mail address in case I had other questions and didn't want to wait for him to have to call me back at the end of the day. This is a new vet for us and we are very happy with his group. He also said to stay on the Z/D till we get her poops under control and she is putting a little weight back on. Small changes are best........one step at a time. You guys are going to become my life line! ;)
Momzworkin
Doggo Mom to Rocky the Chug 12yrs, collapsed trachea, floating patella, osteoarthritis and just plain grumpy
Gibson (Gibby) the Chiweenie 14 yrs, CHF, Cushing survivor, my soul-doggy
Sophie the Dorkshund 4 yrs - EPI baby, little doggo love of my life
Grandoogo Mom to Bella the Border Collie - she was raised with mine and thinks she is also a small dog :D

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member - standard dachshund with EPI

Post by Olesia711 » 19 Oct 2021, 17:15

Sounds like you have quite the 4-legged crew there... they must keep you laughing!

okay... with an EPI dog, even though 434 Cobalamin level (B12) is in the normal range...it is hedging on low normal for an EPI dog..... we strongly suggest supplementing with B12 if the initial B12 level is not at least upper 500's preferably 600's. The reason is we have seen time and time again, that these dogs B12 will too often plummet ... so we like to start them off with upper mid-range B12 levels to give them a good shot at improving.

If you want you can start Sophie on 1/2 capsule of WOnderlabs Pet Factor B12 https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 maybe 3 or 4 days a week.... these capsules are cheap and made with 1000mcg Methylcobalamin B12, 800 mcg Folate, 40 mg Intrinsic Factor.... and works as well or better than the typical Cyanocobalmin B12 shots.......

Ahh the 7 days..... i am guessing your vet is looking to see if the Z/D fixes the mushy poos. Most likely it won't. (and please share with your vet this everything we are suggesting to you ... as we all need to be on the same page to best help Sophie.) The reason why the Z/D most likely won't improve the stools is because it is packed with fiber which technically helps with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) and is really REALLY a great product! BUT.... with EPI dogs, we have to give them pancreatic enzymes.... and fiber can inhibit the efficacy of the enzymes anywhere from 0% to 50%.... perpetuating crappy stools. The problem is that we have no idea from one dog to the next to what degree which dog will be adversely affected by the fiber. If i had to guess i'd say about 80% to 90% of all EPI dog don't do well with fiber.... so you have to remove food with a lot of /grain/fiber in it .... these dogs tend to do best with fiber content of 4% or less..... BUT then... we add our own controlled amount of dietary via slippery elm powder or prebiotics & probiotics. SO..................... do what your vet says... BUT.... if the poos don't improve the explanation above will be either all or part of the reason.

The other part that we see happen a lot of the time, is that the enzymes are working, but the folks don't think so because the stools don't improve..... if a low fiber food doesn't improve the stools then the problem is SID (small intestinal dysbiosis). Really old protocol was to give Metronidazole for SID, then EPI research discovered that Metro usually doesn't work as expected or not at all..., but (Tylan) Tylosin Tartrate (a macrolide antibiotic) does work!!! SO then Tylan came on the scene... Recently they did more research and discovered that Metronidazole is BAD for any chronic gastrointestinal issue.... as it kills ALL the gut flora bacteria and the problem is that some of those bacterial strains never ever come back, no matter how much probiotics you give the dog. Tylan doesn't kill all the bacterial but rather inhibits reproduction of bacteria. SO you have a better chance with building back the gut flora with TYlan. What TAMU EPI research (Dr. Jan Suchodolski) also recently discovered is that with EPI dogs they not only do NOT have enough bacteria in the gut flora, they also do not have enough variety of bacteria in the gut flora. SOOOOOOOOooo...... if possible to initially manage SID (and this comes right from Dr. Joerg Steiner/TAMU) is when an EPI dog is 1st diagnosed instead of reaching for any antibiotic, Tylan included, TRY a prebiotic first, if that doesn't work, then try a prebiotic+probiotic (we currently suggest Visbiome or Proviable).. if that doesn't work and the SID is still out of control (nasty stools) then do Tylan, 45 days, twice a day with breakfast & dinner.

SInce you already started Sophie on Metro, at this point, skip the pre+probiotics and just switch to Tylan antibiotic.... However, about half way thru the 45 day regimen of the Tylan... then introduce a pre+probiotic to start building back the gut flora . We also strongly suggest when introducing a probiotic... DO NOT give the full dose recommended on the package but rather start with less than half and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. Some dogs get loose stools from probiotics and you certainly don't need that with an EPI dog,... so slowly introducing it seems to work much better.

Please share all of this with your vet :) and keep us posted.

And P.S. i know exactly what you mean when you were glad YOU stepped in that fluffy pancake and not hubby.... been there done that.... and my hubby would have reacted the same............... hahhahaha!


t
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 238 guests