B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Jane&Clyde
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Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Jane&Clyde » 03 Dec 2021, 23:17

Debbie, your plan to reduce the probiotic for a few days, then try again, sounds like a good one to me. However, if diarrhea continues, the Tylan may be necessary.

A couple more things that you are probably aware of, so forgive me if this is repeat info:

1. No treats. Maya shouldn't be consuming anything other than her meals with enzymes. Even a bite or two could cause problems. After she has been stable for a while, we can talk about the best kind of treat, how to introduce them, etc.

2. Maya should be eating 150% of the normal amount for a dog at her ideal weight. It should be divided into a minimum of three meals, four would be better.

Please continue to keep us updated. We all know how frustrating this stage is, but Maya WILL get better. It just takes a while to get everything optimized for each individual dog.

maya193
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Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 03 Jan 2022, 16:49

So we are 2 1/2 months into this and it feels like 10 years! About 3 weeks ago we weighed Maya and realized she had lost 3 pounds! We realized at that point that we were not feeding her at 150% of what she SHOULD be getting...So we made that correction and she is finally gaining weight! I spoke to the vet a few times (who is by the way director of one of the most prestigious vet schools in the US...let that sink in...sigh) now about her less than optimal poo's. In short, whenever we travel she gets very stressed and her poo's turn to diarrhea...yellow greasy mess. Once we are back home they stabilize to soft brown within a day or two. (I really think her B-12 levels tank when we travel which is why we do so very rarely)... Discussed B-12 and SID with the vet and she basically told me that she does not have SID and will not treat her for it as any antibiotic (Tylan or otherwise) will create more issues! She said poo's alone do not constitute SID...sigh.... Ugh! In addition, she said that her B-12 is not that low (200). So I'm at a loss with that. Her feeling is that if the poo's are better than baseline and she is gaining weight then that is a positive sign and to let it be at this point. She was on board with trying different enzymes to challenge the system and is ok with trying probiotics. I've been leery of doing either of these things however because I'm afraid of bad poos again and possible weight loss as a result.....and I know that that will probably happen even if incorporated very slowly. I guess I'm just looking for any thoughts on this.....Do some poo's never go back to "normal"? Could we be looking at a new normal of soft brown poos? I thought about looking for another vet but honestly, I'm very limited where I live. :(

Right now I'm giving her 4 meals a day, appx 3 1/2 hours apart (0.75lb raw at each feeding) with 2 flat tsp of enzymes at each meal (incubated) with slippery elm added at first and last meal (a small pinch). Should I try the probiotics?
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 03 Jan 2022, 20:07

Debbie, it's 150% of the recommended amount, if she weighed what she should weigh. Just want to be clear. So, if she weighs 40, and she should weigh 60, and the bag says 4 cups/day for 60 pounds, you would feed 6 cups/ day, in two or three meals. I think you understand this, but I just want to be sure.

Tucker's b12 was 666, 600 being the minimum for an EPI dog, and I still give him a daily Wonderlabs capsule. If they don't need it, they pee it out. As for SID, have you tried slippery elm? You can give that for a couple of weeks, and then slowly add Proviable, and the combination may eliminate the need for antibiotics.

I don't take Tucker many places. He is terrified of noises, and I belong to a group that tracks lost and found dogs. There are so many of them, every day, and I'm not willing to risk him bolting because somebody's balloon pops. Besides, he has plenty of playmates here at home. I share all this personal, unnecessary information, by way of saying I don't know whether or not traveling could be causing your setbacks. But I'm sure that's discouraging.

Take Care---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 03 Jan 2022, 20:22

Hi Pam! I have been giving her slippery elm twice a day but only like an eighth of a teaspoon each time… Should I try bumping that up a little bit first?

And yes! I understand the food piece now! Maya was actually overweight at one point so we cut back her food amount. So when she got diagnosed with EPI we increased based on the reduced amount . Funny how small things make a big difference.

Any change in location or if I leave for more than just a few hours a day she gets really nervous… She’s kind of always been this way since she was
a puppy….

Thank you so much Pam!
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 03 Jan 2022, 20:23

And thank you for sharing your personal information… Sounds like incredible work you do!
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

Jane&Clyde
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Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Jane&Clyde » 03 Jan 2022, 23:48

Debbie, I'm so sorry that your vet doesn't seem willing to work with you on Maya's EPI. Do you think she would read research? Olesia could point you in the direction of EPI related studies.

The stress from travelling could definitely cause the poop to get worse. My non-EPI dog gets digestive upset (diarrhea) when he is stressed out.

About the poos...most dogs can attain at least a 3 on the poop chart that is linked at the bottom of the page, and often get to a 2. Anything lower than a 3 could probably be improved on by tweaking things in some way. However, some dogs need antibiotics to get to that level, and it sounds like your vet says "no" to that. It could still be possible to make some improvements even without antibiotics if the poos aren't at least a 3.

Where are you at with the B12? Still giving shots? Has Maya's B12 been rechecked, or is there any plan to do so? Maya will need supplementation for the rest of her life, no matter what the vet says. If the B12 shots are completely finished with no plans for any more, and no retesting is going to be done, I would start giving the Wonderlabs Pet Factor B-12 daily. Our recommendations are slightly different than what is on the bottle, so if given Maya's weight, we could make a recommendation of how much to give. Better to give a little too much than too little because the excess will be peed out. However, you still don't want to go too far over. Based on my best guess as to Maya's weight, she would need at least 1 capsule a day, possibly more than that. Unfortunately, if Maya hasn't been getting any B12 for a while, it can take 3-4 weeks to see any improvement.

You addressed the question about slippery elm to Pam, and I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I would like to take a stab at answering. The recommended dosage for a dog of Maya's size (assuming she is between 30 and 80 lbs) would be 1/2 teaspoon twice a day, but you were definitely right to start low. My suggestion would be to go up to 1/4 teaspoon twice a day for a few days, then decide if upping it to 1/2 teaspoon twice a day would be a good idea based on how she does. After that you could consider trying the Proviable again, but going REALLY slow, taking a couple pf weeks to work up to the whole capsule.

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 04 Jan 2022, 09:02

Hi Jane,

Unfortunately, she seems very resistant. She's dealt with a lot of EPI cases and is really against using antibiotics. I'll keep trying to educate. I have sent her all the articles from Olessia. I think she just has her way of doing things. BUT she is not against retesting the B-12/folate. Right now we're on the monthly dosing of B-12. So her first test will be mid-Jan (this month). At least we will have a better handle on how the B-12 is holding in her system. For now I'll increase the Slippery Elm to 1/4 tea and see if that makes any changes and then I'll start the probiotic. SLOWLY SLOWLY SLOWLY. I've been resistant to re-trying the probiotic only because we're at a better poo but not a great one yet. I just fear upsetting the progress we've made. But I know I have to try it. I'll keep you poosted (hahaha....accidental typing but I like it...posted? poosted....sounds better!) Thank you so much for your support! xo
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

maya193
Member
Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 31 Jan 2022, 10:10

And here we are....month 4! So, to update....Maya has gained a lot of her weight back. I noticed at the point she really was gaining that her poo really became more normal....chocoate brown, firm, etc. I wonder if the weight gain helps the EPI get under better control? So, the latest is that all of a sudden over the past 2 days her poo's have become soft (still great brown color) and it appears she has more acid reflux symptoms showing up (throwing up bile, licking the air, burps). Now could this all be related to just acid reflux or could it perhaps be related to too much enzyme? Should I try reducing the amount now that her weight is back up? I would go slowly with this of course but wanted the opinion of my friends here. I will reach out to my vet about getting an rx for the acid reflux. But just wondering about the poos...
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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