B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Olesia711 » 24 Nov 2021, 18:19

ahhh... i missed the fact that you are giving wet food.....thanks Jane for catching AND for your calculations and suggestions.

SOOOOOOOOO.... to answer your question Debbie...possibly giving too much enzymes..... my thought is that you are most likely okay giving 1 tsp of enzymes even though you are giving wet food and the typical dosing instructions for wet are 1/2 tsp to 3/4 tsp of enzymes per cup of WET food. The reason why i don't think giving 1 tsp of enzymes might not be a problem at this time is because almost always when first starting to treat EPI, many dogs need more enzymes then what they need after things settle out. SO..... my knee jerk reaction is that you are probably okay with giving a little more than what is recommended...by giving 1 tsp per cup of wet food.... for now. Of course.... i can also be dead wrong............................

So... why don't you try this.....
1. First ....try stopping the slippery elm for 2 to 3 days... and see if THAT improves the poo or not.
if not or even if it makes things worse.... THEN
2. Second... try reducing the enzymes down to 3/4 tsp per cup of wet food. (i am assuming this wet food is minced/ finely chopped... yes?! Of course if the wet food is big chunks of wet food... that would change everything.....then i would definitely try reducing the enzymes first.

Once... you do/figure out the above and go with whichever option appears to produce better poos.... THEN i would check with the vet to start a pre+probiotic. And as Jane suggested, at this time we are recommending Visbiome or Proviable ... Start with less than 1/2 the dose and work up to the recommended full dose over the course of a week or two.

I hope this kind of makes sense......
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

maya193
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 25 Nov 2021, 09:33

Ok! So I'll try what you suggest and then next week contact the vet about the pro and possibly pre biotics....I have noticed her burping a bit more so I think that may be the underlying issue in all of this. It truly is a juggling act. Thank goodness I started a diary early on so I can track all of this! Ugh! Thank you all so much and I'll keep you posted!
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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Olesia711
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Nov 2021, 11:07

that burping is most likely the secondary bile acid functionality not working properly.. All dogs with EPI have an issue with this.. some display symptoms others don't. When symptoms are displayed and become too troublesome, then Omeprazole is often prescribed (bile sequestrants help)... but sometimes, when you get SID under better control, this too is better controlled and Omeprazole is not needed. WIth EPI... everything is connected, the digestive enzymes, bile ducts,, gut flora, B12...and when one is out of whack the others are too... but to what degree you never know...........so you kind of have to try things one-at-a-time.

Just keep an eye on this.... and if this STILL happens excessively about 3 weeks to a month AFTER you have started a pre+probiotic regimen then talk to your vet about Omeprazole.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

maya193
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Pet name: Maya
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 27 Nov 2021, 08:03

Oh yes that makes complete sense! So much to juggle indeed. Eliminating the slippery elm didn't change much so I'm going to try reducing the amount of enzymes and see what happens. Proviable is on the way and will discuss with the vet on Monday. I'm so thankful you all recommended doing a diary...it's the only way I would be able to keep track of all the changes and flag what works and what doesn't! :)

You know something....speaking of the daily diary...I just noticed something that may or may not be significant. Maya was doing well for a good solid week then I gave her her monthly heartworm medication (Sentinel). After that, her poo's changed and never got back to the way they were the week before. I know it could be a coincidence...but could that play any role?
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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Olesia711
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Nov 2021, 08:51

Interesting and YES, Sentinal can cause an adverse reaction of loose stools in some dogs.... but how long the loose stools may last, i have no idea.. but it may have just upset the apple cart, so to speak..

Since things did not improve when you stopped the SLippery Elm...could you tell if things were a little better when slippery was given? If so... go ahead and add the slippery elm back.... and YES... keeping a diary/log/EPI journal is a life saver... otherwise you'd go nuts trying to remember all these little details.

Effectively managing EPI is all about finding the right balance of the recommended EPI protocol for YOUR individual EPI dog..... and that means juggling the 4 aspects of EPI protocol until you find the right blend of things which can be a challenge until you figure things out :)

Please continue to keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 28 Nov 2021, 15:09

Hi Debbie, and welcome from Pam & Tucker.

I just skimmed through your pages, and I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I didn't see it. Proviable---it should be introduced slowly, to avoid a bout of diarrhea. I believe we are told to start with 1/2 capsule, but I think I started even lower, and I took about a week to get up to the full dose. ---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
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Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 28 Nov 2021, 20:45

Hi Pam! Thank you….I’m starting probiotic tomorrow… haven’t heard back from my vet but I just can’t sit and wait….. I just read your post… I too feel like I am at my wits end…. So difficult…. But we are doing the best we possibly can! Never forget that!!
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

maya193
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Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 29 Nov 2021, 15:14

Hello again! I need advice. My vet is not getting back to me on the issue of the pre/probitics. I've purchased the Proviable-DC from chewy.com. The instructions say 1 capsule per day. Is this the standard dose? Would I do less than 1/2 the capsule to start and work up to the full capsule over a week or so? I just want to make sure I'm starting at the right point.
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by Olesia711 » 29 Nov 2021, 20:25

Yes... just break the capsule open and start with less than half.... that will work :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

maya193
Member
Posts: 77
Country: United States
State: Rhode Island
Pet name: Maya
My name: Debbie

Re: B-12 shots plus WonderLabs B-12 with IF?

Post by maya193 » 30 Nov 2021, 09:42

Thank you! :)
Maya is a belgian mal/german shep diagnosed with EPI on 10/12/21. TLI 1.2, B-12 196, Folate 4.8. Currently on Maximum K-9 raw diet, beef and vegetable, Enzyme Diane, Wonderlabs B-12 with IF, Proviable and Slippery Elm.

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