Folate Question

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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KarenH
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Country: Canada
Pet name: Philip
My name: Karen

Folate Question

Post by KarenH » 06 Dec 2021, 14:51

My boy has been on Pank-Aid enzymes as well as 1000 mcg oral B12 (cyanocobalamin) for the past 4 weeks since diagnosis and he is responding really well.

Excellent stools 2-3x/day, great energy, eating 4 cups kibble (27% protein, 3.5% fibre) in 3 meals, overall a happy guy.

Our concern is he has not gained back weight yet, although he has not lost any more. He is already eating plenty for his size (normal weight is 60 lbs), but I am planning to slowly increase his food by another half cup/day.

As well I am considering ordering PET Factor from Wonderlabs as his B12 source. Mentioned this to my vet and he is somewhat concerned about extra folate in the PetFactor formulation because folate was elevated at time of diagnosis. However from what I have read, that was likely more due to SID than EPI… and clinical signs of SID are now resolved… so I am thinking extra folate will not be an issue. Would appreciate any input.

His blood panel numbers from 11/8:

TLI 2.2 ng/mL (ref 5.0-35)

B12 328 pmol/L (ref 209-617)

Folate 43 nmol/L (ref 7-39)

Thanks!
Karen

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Olesia711
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Re: Folate Question

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2021, 19:04

you are 100% right!!!

The folate score in the B12/Cobalmin blood test results ..if it showed a high folate value, that goes along with SID, although nowadays they know that even a in normal range folate score does not mean the dog doesn't have SID, all dogs with EPI have SID :) ... so nobody uses the folate score anymore to diagnose SID.

BUT... back to your concern... the added Folate will not cause a problem... and it will not promote SID :) Actually folate works with the B12 .and should be given together.

REgarding the weight gain... some dogs gain it back fairly quickly but others can take a long time... like up to 2 years!!!!!!!!!!
What you can or should be doing in case no one mentioned it to you before is feed approx 150% of what your dog (according to the current weight) should be getting. Some EPi dogs will forever eat more.... while others will back down to normal amounts of food once the weight is gained back.

Some people start introducing a MCT like 1 tsp of coconut oil, with the meals.... this is a well tolerated fat and it is a nice way to slowly put weight on a dog............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

KarenH
Member
Posts: 12
Country: Canada
Pet name: Philip
My name: Karen

Re: Folate Question

Post by KarenH » 06 Dec 2021, 19:15

Thank you for your reply! Yes, with the next food increase we will be at about 150%.

Will start coconut oil - great tip - do I add that with the enzymes before incubating, or just before feeding?

Thanks again,
Karen

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
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Re: Folate Question

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2021, 19:20

i used to just drop a blob of coconut oil in and mix in the food just before feeding... but you can incubate it if you want...or not.
HOWEVER... buy good quality cold pressed or extra virgin coconut oil... i used Jarrow's cold pressed:

https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas- ... 172&sr=8-4

start with 1/2 tsp... just to make sure it is not too rich to give all at once ... and then work your way up to a tsp. Some folks have even worked their way up to 2 tablespoons.... but i personally only gave 1 tsp..........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

KarenH
Member
Posts: 12
Country: Canada
Pet name: Philip
My name: Karen

Re: Folate Question

Post by KarenH » 10 Dec 2021, 07:52

Ok, so I have ordered the Wonderlabs B12 and have decided to increase food by adding a 4th small (half cup) kibble meal at lunch. My boy still has not gained any weight in the month since starting enzymes.

Will next look at adding MCT oil if the food increase goes well. Can I give the B12 and MCT oil at the same meal, or is it better to give them at different meals?

Also want to confirm that I should continue to match enzymes 1:1 with food intake - so for the extra 1/2 cup meal I will add 1/2 tsp Pank-Aid? This will bring him up to 4.5 c kibble with 4.5 tsp enzymes each day.

One other question - I know not to microwave the enzymes but is it ok to microwave the water before putting on the enzymes? Our drinking water from the tap is room temperature or a little below so I have been zapping for a few seconds on Low setting to bring it up to lukewarm before adding to the enzymes.

Thanks again. I value the advice here so much!
Karen

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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Re: Folate Question

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Dec 2021, 11:35

thank you so much for diligently following protocol !!! You are doing a great job :)

With EPI dogs, when first diagnosed, the first thing you try to tackle is getting the stools under good control... when you accomplish this (or there-about) then the next thing to focus on is the weight gain. Unfortunately the range of time accomplishing this can be anywhere from weeks/months to a few years... and it varies from one dog to the next! One month is at the very beginning of the weight gain range..... so please know that you are doing a great job so far.

Lets see if any weight gain happens once you start giving the Wonderlabs B12..... as low or insufficient B12 for that individual dog is one of the possibilities of no weight gain.

In the meantime, YES!!! you can just add the coconut oil to the food with the enzymes and you can also include the B12 in the food, or sprinkle it on top of the food or give the capsule before during or after a meal... it doesn't matter. anytime is fine :)

And YES!!!! you are right ration of enzymes is 1:1 .. so give 1/2 tsp of enzymes with extra 1/2 cup of food you are giving.
The only time we up the enzyme dose is as one of the things we try when the stools continue to be sloppy with the 1:1 ratio.... then sometimes we suggest trying a pinch more enzymes and if the extra enzymes help that often indicates that that particular food is not optimal for that particular EPI dog. Often it means there is either too much fiber or sometimes even if the fiber content is decent, the food just might have too many carbs or stuffed with the wrong carbs for that particular dog. Sometimes its some wierd minor ingredient that promotes sloppy stools... in any case, when extra enzymes are needed... then we suggest trying a different food.

If the water from the tap is room temperature.... then that is fine. perfectly fine... no need to microwave the water to make it any warmer..... or when you get the water from the tap, lukewarm warm instead.

Again... WOW!!! you are really doing a great job.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Re: Folate Question

Post by Barb » 11 Dec 2021, 10:17

Hi Karen,

I can attest to the fact that B12 can affect our dogs' weight gain. Our Kolby did not start gaining weight until we got the B12 levels up. It took him well over a year to gain and to start approaching his target weight. He did stop losing, which we were very grateful for, but his gaining was slow going. So hang in there. You are doing everything right. The Pet Factor B12 helped Kolby to get those levels up.

Barb

KarenH
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Posts: 12
Country: Canada
Pet name: Philip
My name: Karen

Re: Folate Question

Post by KarenH » 11 Dec 2021, 11:00

Thank you Barb and Olesia for your support and encouragement!

Karen

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