What to do now?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
cloggynoo
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United Kingdom - Scotland
Pet name: Lylamae
My name: Sher

What to do now?

Post by cloggynoo » 17 Jan 2022, 16:14

My girl has had EPI for about a year now. Apart from a couple of small blips, she has done just fine. However, she suffered a pancreas attack that saw her visiting the emergency vet. She was given a lot of stuff but none of it is stopping her diarrhoea. Although she seems fine in herself, it’s not settling. Her poop comes out in a yellow fountain. I had her on just baked fish so her stomach had a bit of a rest but she is here, over a week past the start of it all and still pooping torrents of liquid despite her enzymes.
What am I missing? Should she be having anything else? She cannot have meats as her liver is also compromised so cannot process food. I thought about antibiotics but to be honest, after all this time living with EPI, I’m so despondent and worried for her that I can’t think straight!

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1452
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: What to do now?

Post by jilbert57 » 17 Jan 2022, 16:51

Hi Sher, what kind of enzyme are you using and what is the amount of enzyme per amount of food?
Too much enzyme can produce sloppy poops as well as too little.
Is the B12 level above the high end of the marker?
Does your pup have grumble guts or burping? SID/SIBO might also be in play.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

cloggynoo
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United Kingdom - Scotland
Pet name: Lylamae
My name: Sher

Re: What to do now?

Post by cloggynoo » 17 Jan 2022, 17:12

She is on Pro Enzorb since the very start and never had this before. One capsule between her three meals since the start too.
She has been on the B12 since the start but not sure what you mean?
Yes, very grumbling at some times.
I’m at my wits end as she was sailing along so well until her pancreatitis flare up.

cloggynoo
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United Kingdom - Scotland
Pet name: Lylamae
My name: Sher

Re: What to do now?

Post by cloggynoo » 17 Jan 2022, 17:14

Meant to say also that her diarrhoea is so bad sometimes she just piddles it out of her bottom whilst walking.😢

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1452
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: What to do now?

Post by jilbert57 » 17 Jan 2022, 18:07

I mean the B12 level needs to be kept at the upper high level range. Will you post your pups Tli test result as well as B12 and Folate if they were also tested.
We can help more if we know the test results.

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guides-outside-usa/

Thanks
Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Jean
Staff
Posts: 1484
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: What to do now?

Post by Jean » 17 Jan 2022, 18:31

hello Sher


we need go talk

I am in Liverpool .let me know where you are In Scotland one of my favourite places
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 2435
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: What to do now?

Post by Olesia711 » 17 Jan 2022, 19:51

that almost sounds like really bad uncontrolled SID ... or the fact that it is watery poo... this possibly could be a food allergy/sensitivity........it also sounds like she is on a lot of food limitations......and from what i understand, once they have a food sensitivity, they often develop more sensitivities over time.......
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

cloggynoo
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United Kingdom - Scotland
Pet name: Lylamae
My name: Sher

Re: What to do now?

Post by cloggynoo » 18 Jan 2022, 06:35

Jill,
She has never had any test for any levels of anything! It’s obviously not something that the vets here do which is very worrisome. Would you be kind enough to give me more info about the tests so I can let the vets know exactly what it is I’m requesting?

It doesn’t surprise me though as everything I have learnt about Lylas condition and any remedies have been found through this site. Even my vet acknowledges they don’t know much about it but in her defence, has been supportive with everything I have told her I need.

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 2435
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: What to do now?

Post by Olesia711 » 18 Jan 2022, 11:58

at this point...
1. the first thing i would do is ask your vet if it would be appropriate to give her pre+probitoics and if this would be okay with her pancreatitis AND her inability to have meats..... If yes she can have probiotics.... then start with LESS than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. "IF" probiotics are not a good thing for her to try..... THEN..... based on what your description of her poo.....

2. ask your vet to prescribe TYlan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder 100 grams) to be given twice a day with food for 45 days.... How much does she weigh... Dose is based on weight.. DO NOT give her Metronidazole..... this is NOT good to give dogs with chronic gastro conditions.... whether EPI or Pancreatitis..... TYlan info is here: https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ and please let your vet know that YES!!! Tylan is available in the UK it is just sometimes harder to locate.

Or.. if you can give the probiotics and are not seeing any positive results within a week... start the Tylan antibiotics.

3. THe Tylan should stop the loose stools.... once that is taken care of.... watch closely to see if the loose stools return once the TYlan regimen is completed.. if the stools get loose again... or if they never really firm up.... THEN i would start focusing on food allergies/sensitivities....

There are two ways to approach this.
1. run tests to see what types of food allergies/sensitivities she has..... i am not sure what kind of tests are offered in the UK ....BUT... please know that often, the allergy tests are inaccurate UnLESS the test results are really high. There is also a sensitivity test by Dr. Jean Dodds. THis is a USA product so i am not sure if she can ship the kit to the UK... But might be worth contacting her and asking https://hemopet.org/nutriscan/
2. Or... talk to your vet about trying a true Hydrolyzed food. THe one that EPI dogs appear to most often respond to best (although not every single dog, just mosty) is a hydrolyzed food by Royal Canin called "Ultamino" this is a prescription food that your vet will have to order...........

hope this helps give you some suggestions that you can review with your vet to decide which one is most appropriate to try at this point.........

The last but most likely not the issue... is that maybe the recent batch of ProEnzorb that you are using is either old, and you need to give more or they changed the formula and you need to give more..... you can try upping the enzymes.... to see if this might be part of the problem....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1065
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: What to do now?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 18 Jan 2022, 12:11

Hi Sher, and welcome from Pam & Tucker in Florida. One of my dearest friends originally hails from Glasgow, and what a story teller she is. I am glad you will have Jean on your side with this journey.

You've also heard from Olesia, who is sooo knowledgeable, so all good there.

I think if my dog was pooping as she was walking, I'd want to cut to the chase & get on Tylan, if possible. Slippery elm is a good prebiotic.

You may want to put some petroleum jelly or diaper ointment on a tissue & coat its bottom, because that kind of poop long term can be caustic. Poor doggy.

So, continue asking all your questions & keep us posted. This group is very, very helpful.

Take Care---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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