EPI/SID Greyhound Questions

[Supe]

Thank you both, I was able to find the Herding Dog formula on Amazon and will give that a try first, as she seemed to eat and do well on lean red meat in her pre-EPI days.

Olesia - I initially thought green always defaulted to "transit time" excluding biliary/liver issues, but what had me questioning that this time is the fact that the green portion always seems to be darkest/most fully formed, and it's the loose bits at the end (such as the 2nd/3rd/4th smaller BM's after exercise) that are the mustard yellow color with the highest moisture content. This had me thinking that it may have been the yellow coloration that was indicating faster transit time, since the green only started to show as her poos began to form into semi-solids once beginning the enzymes.

I will try the extra Tylan with the mid day meal and report back how that goes. Thankfully she had a pretty good day yesterday with no discernable stomach rumbling, but she does still seem to be struggling with evening reflux despite the 30mg omeprazole 2x daily. I wonder if she's far enough along in the process yet to consider introducing slippery elm?

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback!

[Olesia711]

that's my understanding too... that the "green" in/on poop is a transit time issue...... and that mustard color poo..... if the dog is already on enzymes and getting the proper amount (and that the enzymes are the correct type of enzymes!) then that yellow poo usually indicates "out of good control SID" . And with EPI ALL of this is connected, from the acid reflux issues to out of good control SID to too quick transit time.... and with each of these adverse responses, it is almost like it all goes back to gut flora issues.

Even the acid reflux. They say approx 70% of acid reflux is not actually too much acid but rather not enough of the right type of acid. If this is true, then this too goes back to gut flora imbalance. And on top of this EPI dogs have an issue with their secondary bile acid situation.

Not every EPI dog will display symptoms, but enough of them do......... there is research regarding the bile acid issue in dogs with chronic enteropathy: https://epi4dogs.com/sid-sibo-microbiome-research/ It is the research titled "Comparison of intestinal expression of the apical sodium-dependent bile acid transporter between dogs with and without chronic inflammatory enteropathy." And here is another research article that covers it all: https://epi4dogs.com/epi-research/ titled "Altered Microbiota, fecal lactate, and fecal bile acids in dogs with gastrointestinal disease" ... this research kind of sums it all up !

[Supe]

Thank you! Do you think it’s worth introducing a pre/probiotic with the food change?

[Olesia711]

Yes.... try the new food and give it a few days.... if it is sloppy from the change go ahead and then introduce a pre+probiotic.... just be sure when introducing a probiotic that you start off with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. The reason why we strongly suggest this is because sometimes some dogs are extra sensitive and this is too much of a change for their gut all at once.... so to err on the side of caution... go slow.

[Supe]

Thanks, I will go ahead and order some slippery elm powder and a Visbiome refill to have on hand.

[Supe]

Just a short update - we started transitioning Ursala slowly over to the new food, and have been adding the extra 1/4 tsp of Tylan to her mid-day meal.

She is snubbing her nose a bit at all kibble right now, because she seems to not enjoy the mushy consistency of it after a 20 minute soak. So I am letting part of the kibble soak and then mixing in some fresh kibble, so its well coated before serving but preserving the texture - she seems to be finishing that OK with a little persuasion. We did have to start a fresh bag of the HA kibble, so its also possible there's something in the new bag that is not as appetizing to her. She's also a little spooked by one of our bigger greys right now, because he landed on her jumping off the furniture and put a nasty scratch in her arm, so she's showing some apprehension around him during feeding.

While her BM's for the past few days have been a little softer than normal, the khaki green color has changed to a dark brown, so hopefully we're heading in the right direction, though its possible the color of the new kibble is just masking things a bit (the HA kibble is a very pale beige/near white color, and the herding dog formula is a more traditional deep brown). Gas/stomach gurgling has seemingly stopped or at least gone unnoticed.

Fingers crossed that Thursday's dental is uneventful, and then we can get back to tweaking things here.

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Sounds like a good report to me. You know, you may not need to add as much liquid as you are. As long as the enzymes are dissolved & it's all mixed together, that should be fine. I add more liquid to Tucker's because he gets mouth sores that make him cry, so I like diluting the enzymes more. But, you don't really have to saturate the food. On the other hand, adding some crunchies to get her excited about eating sounds like a good idea.

Yep, that Herding Dogs poop really does show up out on top of the grass!

[Olesia711]

sounds like you are indeed heading in the right direction..... hope the dental event goes well.... (always something, eh?!)

BTW... if the transit time was still happening to quickly, even with the darker poo, you'd most likely still see evidence of green... but since you are not hearing tummy noises anymore either..... these are all good signs.....
I am hoping the softer poo is just an issue of her gut getting used to the new food composition............and that it will improve over the next few days.

And as Pam noted... you don't have to make the kibble too soft... just dampen it enough for the emzymes to stick to the food. What you want to avoid is Ursala eating dry enzymes as that can cause mouth sores......

Overall... things sounds like they are coming together.... Paws & Fingers crossed.... PLEASE continue to keep us posted!

[Supe]

Hi everyone - unfortunately, the last year of soft food and acid reflux was pretty rough on Ursala's teeth. She had most of her rear teeth on the right side extracted yesterday, and will be going back in a month for the left side. She has been very reluctant to eat kibble at all lately, which may have been a combination of taste (she would still beg for table scraps and was definitely wanting to eat) and tooth pain (she would never show it, but the x rays confirmed it must have hurt), but thankfully, she actually GAINED a pound since her last visit despite being reluctant to finish her meals. Perhaps she's absorbing more calories with the enzymes doing their job to aid in digestion.

Regardless, due to her combination of laryngeal paralysis and limited ability to chew, we are going to have to transition away from kibble completely and over to wet food. She also has to be on Amoxicillin during healing, so we're effectively starting from scratch in about 6 weeks time.

Any recommendations on suitable wet foods to look into would be much appreciated (cooking her meals is also not out of the question by any means). Temporarily I will be giving her Freshpet, so dosing recommendations for the enzymes would be appreciated since its wetter than kibble, but not as high in moisture as canned food.

[Supe]

Just a brief update on Ursala - she's doing very well after the extractions, no issues, full of energy and much fresher breath!

I'm unsure if its the additional amoxicillin or the Freshpet food, but her poops are the best they have been in MONTHS. Distinct segmented pieces, brown throughout, smaller volume, hold their shape (they're a pla-doh consistency but she's actually having to push a bit, not just falling out of her like they have been), and very low odor. This leads me to believe that eliminating kibble and going to a cooked or raw diet (maybe even sticking with the Freshpet) may be the way to go long-term. There was no discernable difference when she had the chicken-based sensitive stomach version, vs. the standard beef offering.

We will see how she does once the additional antibiotics stop. I have been doing 1 3/8 tsp of the enzymes per 3/4 lbs of the Freshpet loaf, and that seems to be working well so far - no gas or stomach gurgles.