All the EPI help I can get please -

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
laurieryan
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Maui
My name: Laurie

All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by laurieryan » 27 Jan 2022, 09:11

I am still struggling, too. My soulful and beautiful German Shepherd puppy Maui was diagnosed on Dec 28 (10 mos old) and my vet seems to not know much about EPI. Reading through this was very helpful and the folks on the Facebook page helped me tremendously. She had lost 12 pounds and has since gained 6 back and her stool is back to normal - whew! I use the pancreatin 6x from Enzyme Diane AND raw bovine pancreas. I feed her three full meals a day and two 1/2 meals twice a day, every 3 hours. For me, One meal is a cup of dry and a cup of wet, 1/2 meal is a mix: one cup or one baked sweet potato or 1 cup wet or 1 cup cooked chicken, just to give her a variety. I use 1 tsp powder on 1 cup of dry and 1/2 tsp on anything wet. I also put 1 tsp of raw pancreas in each of her 3 main meals.
So my questions -
Am I doing it right?
How do I know if she needs an antibiotic? Her nose is always warm.
How do I know if she needs a probiotic?
The vet said nothing about pancreatitis - what are signs of this? Should she have been tested for this?
She seems to scratch a lot. I added coconut oil to her dinner and it helped but she still scratches too much.
Weirdest question ever - is there such a thing as a pancreas transplant? LOL but I am willing to consider it.
What about training treats? I also train with play but once in a while, a treat would be nice. I was making healthy treats with the powder mixed in but was informed that heat kills the enzyme, so....
And - when she first came home, the breeder gave me vitamins to give her. Can she still have those? I actually stopped them but was wondering ...

Thanks everyone!!
Laurie

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1066
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 Jan 2022, 12:34

Hi Laurie, and welcome to the forum. It sounds like you are madly in love with Maui, and she is lucky to have you!

Wow, you are doing a lot. Good weight gain, in this amount of time. Here's my best reply, starting with the fact that in general, EPI dogs don't do well with poultry. BUT, if you are having good results, I'd say she's an exception.

EPI has four cornerstones---

enzymes----1 teaspoon/1 cup dry food, and I believe 3/4 teaspoon for 1 cup of wet food. Stir & let sit 20 minutes before feeding

diet---grain-free, no peas, less than 4% fiber---many of us feed Sport Dog Elite, for herding dogs

SID---They all have it, and if her poo looks good, you'll want to just start her on slippery elm & maybe some proviable. Start with half the recommended amount, and build up to a full dose over a week or two; this will prevent her from having runny poo. Hopefully, you can hold SID symptoms at bay. You may not need antibiotics, if this keeps her poop nice. https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/ If you do end up needing antibiotics, the one to use is called Tylan.

B12---EPI dogs need higher than normal range B12. My Tucker's level was 666, and 600 is eh, ok, so I supplement him anyways, with Wonderlabs Intrinsic Factor B12.

treats---should be enzymed. Maybe some peanut butter rolled in powder? Followed by water, to rinse out the caustic enzymes. Or, a tablespoon of pumpkin with enzymes stirred in. Vitamins should be fine, I think.

Can you please post all of the test results from her blood work?

And, lastly, I was throwing the ball for Tucker a little earlier, and I had the same thought about pancreas transplants, no lie! It would be sooo complicated, though, to find a dog that just died, that had the right size pancreas, and oh, how sinister it could all become! So, I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen, but it's uncanny that I was just thinking about it. (I am mortified by the retired greyhounds kept for blood donations, and this, too, brings all kinds of scary thoughts to my brain).

So, ask all the questions you have. They'll be answered to the best of everyone's ability. Take care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

laurieryan
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Maui
My name: Laurie

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by laurieryan » 27 Jan 2022, 13:16

Thank you! I AM madly in love with this girl.
I have had shepherds all of my life and I never even heard of EPI until this past December.
Here are Maui's test results:
maui's results.pdf
(47.21 KiB) Downloaded 56 times
I have no idea what result goes with what! My vet spewed them off quickly and I did not know I was supposed to check the B12 (forgot to mention she gets a capsule of that every day from WonderLab PET Factor B12))
I also did not know about the chicken - I will stop that, even though she loves it.
Her poo is back to normal. What is the Slippery Elm for? Is that a probiotic? "They" say I am supposed to give her a pre and pro biotic - true?

If anyone knows of a knowledgable vet in the Westchester NY USA area, please send me the name :)

Thanks again!
Laurie

Barb
Staff
Posts: 766
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by Barb » 27 Jan 2022, 15:48

Hi Laurie, and welcome to you and Maui. You are doing a great job already and Pam has given excellent advice. Congratulations on the good poos and the weight gain. It often takes dogs longer to gain weight......all those meals are paying off!

Treats are often difficult for everyone. We usually discourage them at the beginning so she doesn't get SID. Once she is stable for several months, you can try a couple of things,, but always keep your eye on the poos. One thing we did was take a bit of food that had been enzymed and incubated and put very, very small bits into ice cube tray compartments and freeze them, then take a couple out and use them at room temperature. Again keep your eye on the poos. Luckily for us, Kolby loved his ball more than food, so we could use his ball for training and rewards with only a small dependence on treats. I know that some dogs are much more food motivated, so you have to be creative. Others will tell you what has worked for them.

I also recommend keeping a log/journal, recording everything you give each day, the amounts, and the resulting poos. This will help you to see what is working and what needs to be adjusted. It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on this but seeing it in writing often gives you quite a bit of information.

Maui is lucky to have you. She is responding well to treatment. Try not to feel overwhelmed. The beginning stage is the hardest until you get everything balanced.

Barb

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1066
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 Jan 2022, 19:28

Laurie---Thanks for getting back to us. That's a LOT of testing! Maybe Olesia will be able to decipher what they mean.

Slippery elm is a prebiotic, and proviable is a probiotic. If you use them, you will start out slowly, so you don't change the poo from good to runny. Many people are able to control SID with just these supplements, and no need for Tylan.---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

laurieryan
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Maui
My name: Laurie

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by laurieryan » 28 Jan 2022, 08:29

In my last post, I attached all of Maui's bloodwork. Here are the EPI results:
mauis epi test results.pdf
(19.13 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
Thanks again for your help.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1066
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 28 Jan 2022, 15:57

B12(cobalamin) looks good! Question----Were you giving B12 supplements before the blood test? The reason I ask is, it is best to stop them a week or so before the test, to get an accurate reading. Personally, I'd like to know what Tuck's level is when he's on them, just because, but it's not worth it to me to get it done. How are things going?---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, two capsules slippery elm/evening, 1 Proviable capsule/day, and Tylan 1/32 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

laurieryan
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Maui
My name: Laurie

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by laurieryan » 28 Jan 2022, 16:28

I have been giving her a daily vitamin since she was 12 wks old. It has B12 in it. The vet did not tell me to stop giving her those but I did for the 12 hr fasting before her test. She really is not at all knowledgeable about EPI. She even gave me a plant based enzyme at first called prozyme and I had to let her know that was not right for EPI dogs, and that the best enzyme is animal enzyme. She also advised against raw pancreas but it is working very nicely. I stopped the vitamin and just give her a B12 capsule (the content, not the capsule) sprinkled on Maui's food at lunch.
How about the pro and pre biotic? Should I just be giving her that no matter what? She does scratch herself a lot - less now but still too much.

laurieryan
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Maui
My name: Laurie

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by laurieryan » 24 Mar 2022, 10:00

Been a while but I have a few more questions -
Am I supposed to give her a prebiotic and a probiotic? Is there something that contains both?
She is now in her first heat and her appetite has decreased. She has lost a pound this past week. Is this ok?
She seems to be hating the powdered enzyme a bit and is refusing to eat. It really does smell bad I have to say. Is giving only raw pancreas ok?
How do I know if she has SID? What do I look for?

Thanks!!

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1454
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: All the EPI help I can get please -

Post by jilbert57 » 24 Mar 2022, 10:27

With SID you usually have some signs of gas and tummy rumblings. Also acid reflux, maybe no interest in eating. How are the poops?

There are a couple things you can try if your pup really not eat with the enzymes.

Yes raw pancreas can work but you need to try and adjust until poops are good.

You can put the amount of enzymes in gel caps and feed right before the meal. Use extra as some will be not withstand the stomach acid. Again keep track of the poop.

Creon can be used but requires a lot of messing around doseage wise.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests