Help With My Dog's Diet

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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FranMac2
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Location: Laurence Harbor
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Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by FranMac2 » 24 Mar 2022, 22:14

Hi all, I am new to the forum and would appreciate help! I have a 6 year old GS mix - they think with black lab. She was diagnosed a year ago with EPI. She has been on Panzquin which didn't do that much without giving large quantities so I stopped it. I have tried multiple different dry foods, and recently has been on The Hills Gastrointestinal Biome along with The Proviable Probiotic. This was working for awhile but the past few weeks it seemed to stop working. The vet wants to put her back on the enzyme. Can anyone give any suggestions for a different dry food that isn't as costly. The Hills is very costly and so is the enzyme. Oh I also tried a partial raw diet for about 6 weeks awhile back but that didn't work either and my vet was very against it.

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Olesia711
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by Olesia711 » 24 Mar 2022, 23:51

Hi Fran,
Since your dog was confirmed with EPI it needs to be on enzymes.
The Panzquin is the right type and right potency...... but you need to start with 1 level tsp of this enzyme per 1 cup of food... add a little water (moisten the food) let it sit for about 20 minutes, mix and then serve.
Some dogs when starting out may even require a pinch more of enzymes but then as things straighten out.... a lot of these dogs can then get by on a reduced amount of enzymes.
You also need to give these enzymes with every piece of food that your dog ingests. No treats inbetween in the beginning.
MAny of us use generic enzymes from EnzymeDiane to save on the cost
https://enzymediane.com/product-category/pancreatin-6x/...

Your vet is correct to want to place your dog back on enzymes.... if no longer getting enzymes on the food, then that is why nothing appears to be agreeing with your dog food-wise, etc....

Also.... sometimes folks "think" the enzymes are not working when in fact they are but what you are seeing are signs of SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) that is out of control....and this will display just like untreated EPI . They now understand that SID is in ALL dogs with EPI, the goal is to keep SID in good control.

The way to do this is
(1) give enzymes with every meal, give the right amount, etc.
(2) start with a diet that is low in fiber content of 4% or less since fiber can inhibit the enzyme activity from anywhere between 0% to 50%... so we suggest using low fiber food to begin with so use food without any grain in it. There are many commercial foods that fit this parameter
(3) make sure the B12 levels are in the upper mid range... if not, and over 80% of all dogs with EPI need B12 supplementation, then you dog needs high dose B12. Your vet can either give B12 shots or you can order B12 with intrinsic factor and Folate from wonderlabs: https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688
(4) to treat SID, start with a prebiotic supplement, many of us use SLippery Elm powder. https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
if the SLippery Elm helps but not enough or if it doesn't help at all, then use a probiotic like what you are doing with Proviable, or Visbiome. If when this doesn't work, then talk to your vet and have them prescribe Tylan for 45 days/twice a day with breakfast and dinner... and continue with the probiotic. THis should get the SID under good control.

I strongly suspect that what you were dealing with was SID, not that the enzymes weren't working. But now that you are not giving enzymes you are also seeing the results of an untreated EPI dog. Effectively treating an EPI dog means treating the WHOLE dog with the right "balance " of the recommended protocol that works best for that dog.

Hopefully this information will help you get your dog feeling better.......
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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jilbert57
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by jilbert57 » 25 Mar 2022, 08:28

Olesia has given you great advice.
Will you please post the results of your dogs test results confirming Epi? The Tli, B12 and folate if possible.
Thank you

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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FranMac2
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by FranMac2 » 25 Mar 2022, 10:33

Thank you for the help and information!
My vet has never said anything to me about SID or B12 - its very discouraging that they didn't

I will research getting the slippery elm. What is the best dry food you can recommend? Honestly, the food she is on and the enzymes are proving to be very, very costly.

I can post the test results but I will have to find them since I have them filed away. She was extensively tested about 6 months ago or so.

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Olesia711
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Mar 2022, 11:15

you are very welcome.
Unfortunately, EPI is not that cheap to treat.... but what we do try is to find acceptable alternatives to help maintain this condition.

To save on Enzyme expense, i urge you to look at the Enzyme Diane link i provided above.... and please know that although the prices are high, you are getting a lot more enzymes for example, i kilo is 3 times the amount of enzymes that the vets sell in a bottle which is usually only 12 ounces.

Regarding food..... there are so many out there that fit the parameters to first "try"....when first starting out on managing EPI, first start with foods that have no grain in them, 4% or les of fiber content, AND a food that is not loaded with pea products. THe difficult thing with EPI diets is that one brand may work great for 1 EPI dog but not the next EPI dog and this is because each dog has their own unique gut flora composition.... so sometimes that too plays into what works or doesn't.

Since you sound like you are struggling with the cost of everything... maybe try the smallest bag possible of Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream kibble.... following the feeding and enzyme directions given in my pervious post....give it a week and see if this food agrees or not with your dog.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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FranMac2
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Posts: 24
Location: Laurence Harbor
Country: United States
State: New Jersey
Pet name: Stella
My name: Fran

Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by FranMac2 » 25 Mar 2022, 16:18

You're right - it is an expensive condition. I can manage the enzymes and food better now with the advice I have received already. The enzymes suggested are definitely cheaper as well as the dog food so that will definitely help. I saw in someone else's post a food called Sport Dog Food Elite Series. Do you know if that is also a good brand?
I am excited to try these new suggestions.
I am going to be ordering that enzyme form Enzyme Diane this weekend! Along with the B12 and the slippery elm. My Stella has been on the Proviable for several months now - should she still have the slippery elm?

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Olesia711
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Mar 2022, 17:26

I highly recommend Sport Elite dog food... but it is very expensive.... so i really would try the Taste of the Wild-Pacific Stream version first (try the smallest bag possible which would be the 5lb bag)... to see if it agrees with your dog's gut flora.

https://www.chewy.com/taste-wild-pacifi ... /dp/181318

... if that works..... then feel free to change up to Sport Elite ... the white fish version is the one i would try first in the Sport Elite line.... here is the link to it at Chewy:

https://www.chewy.com/sport-dog-food-el ... /dp/172137.

As you can see the Sport food only comes in large size bags, so this is why i'd try the Taste of the wild first....to see if white fish is agreeable with a less expensive food..

Glad to hear your pup is on Proviable......... personally i would still purchase the SLippery Elm powder... if your dog is still having loose stools.... cuz the SLippery Elm might be of extra help. In addition to having prebiotic properties, it is also a mucilage that coats the intestines and we "think" it also stops bad metabolites from getting thru with SID.... HOWEVER... this being said.... some dogs justt don't respond to SLippery Elm... while with others it is a game changer. The good thing about SLippery Elm is that (1) it's real cheap (2) you yourself can use it for crampy stomach, loose stools, and for cooking (making gravies), for burns (make a salve out of it)... i always keep a stash in my kitchen cabinet for multiple applications!

In other words.... try it, see if it helps, if it doesn't you can use it for other things........ but do continue the Proviable. :)

Hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 Mar 2022, 18:15

Hi Fran, and welcome to you & Stella.

My Tucker is supposed to be a shepherd/lab, and he does well on Sport Dog Elite, for herding dogs. Olesia is right, it's pricey, but I go straight to the company & usually get the best price. It's $81.00 direct from the company, more from amazon & chewy. Feed 150% the amount you'd feed her at her ideal weight. If she should weigh 80 & the directions say 4 cups, you feed 6 cups, spread over three meals a day, until she gains her weight.

We've also fed Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream with good results. Be sure and follow the directions for preparing the meal. This really helps.

When you look at Diane's Enzymes, be aware that they recently had a sharp rise in price due to a shortage of pig pancreas (?????), and the cost is expected to go down once the market levels out. Diane is awesome, answering emails personally if you have questions, and her product is great.

Stay in touch, please do post those test results, and if you haven't already shared this, what does Stella weigh & what should she weigh?

Thanks! Take Care---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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FranMac2
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Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by FranMac2 » 26 Mar 2022, 14:04

Thanks Pam,

I so appreciate all of the welcome help and advice I have received. I was able to upload a picture of my Stella. Working on the test results now.

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FranMac2
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Location: Laurence Harbor
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My name: Fran

Re: Help With My Dog's Diet

Post by FranMac2 » 26 Mar 2022, 15:25

Here are Stella's test results showing her EPI diagnosis.

I do have a question - given her Folate level, should she be on B-12 supplements?
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Stella - EPI results.pdf
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