SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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mollyseven
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Posts: 18
Country: Canada
Pet name: walter
My name: Denise

SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by mollyseven » 02 May 2022, 16:00

So finally got walters blood test results back
TLI 20.8
Cobalamin 575
Spec cpl <30
Folate 52

Only issue is the folate is high and the notation from the lab says
Increased serum folate is seen in patients with EPI and/or small intestinal
bacterial overgrowth.

Now I asked my vet if we are to treat the SIBO and she said the internal Dr she spoke to didn’t suggest that they just said to continue the Forta flora and give a limited ingredient diet

Seems odd to me
She suggested redoing his fecal sample because when we got him 3 months ago he was positive for giardia, coccidia, chlostridia and campylobacter. He has since tested negetive for giardia and coccidia but we haven’t retested for the others.

Any SIBO experience ?
I’m thinking trying slippery elm but my biggest concern is that he goes about 13 hours all day long with no poop and then poops from 10pm till 6am every couple of hours 😣

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jilbert57
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Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by jilbert57 » 02 May 2022, 17:13

There os a lot of good information on SIBO on our site. Go to the home icon on the forum site, hit the dash marks on the upper right and go to SIBO.
https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by Olesia711 » 03 May 2022, 11:19

Hmmm........ years ago, they (vets) thought that SID/SIBO only happened as a secondary condition to an ailment...... nowadays it appears that SID/SIBO can happen as a "stand-alone" issue..... So.... it is either that OR it is that or that they just haven't figured out all the possible underlying ailments that can trigger SID.

The fact that he "poops from 10pm till 6am every couple of hours " i bet this is because this is his transit time (the amount of time that it take for his last meal to go thru his particular digestive system.....).

If he is still having issues while on Forti Flora.... the Forti Flora is NOT optimally working for him.

To treat SID..... the current protocol is:
1. Try prebiotics (food for bacteria to increase the gut flora natural bacterial population.... if this doesn't work in a few weeks
2. Try doing prebiotics with probiotics..... currently the probiotics we are suggesting are: (prescription) Proviable, Visbiome, (non-prescription) VetriScience Mega Probiotics, Mercola Complete Probiotics ....... if this doesn't help at all after a few weeks.
3. Try a course of Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate 100 grams) antibiotic.

Actually the "limited diet" is actually a good suggestion... look at the Natural Balance line.... since the TLI came back at 20..... my suggestion is for you to try Natural Balance Beef & Brown Rice https://www.chewy.com/natural-balance-l ... /dp/303516.

Looking at his "history" with "3 months ago he was positive for giardia, coccidia, chlostridia and campylobacter." it kind of makes me wonder if what you are dealing with is what we would have called in the past, leaky gut symdrome..... from possible gut lining damage dealing with all of this.....(which years ago vets claimed dogs didn't get leaky gut syndrome BUT now they have conceded that they DO get leaky gut syndrome!!) ... ANYWAY....now they often interchange the term "leaky gut syndrome" with "SID/SIBO" .......
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

mollyseven
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Posts: 18
Country: Canada
Pet name: walter
My name: Denise

Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by mollyseven » 03 May 2022, 19:20

Thank you for the considerate and info filled response.
What did you make of the TLI 20 when you suggested that food…. Was there something you thought about that number or ?
The Forta flora is supposed to be both pre and probiotic the vet told me. I guess I should look into different ones, I check out your suggestions.

Thanks

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Olesia711
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Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by Olesia711 » 03 May 2022, 19:44

The cTLI at 20 means (at least for now) this is not EPI.

The reason why i honed in on Natural Balance Beef & Brown Rice is because if you are going to feed a kibble and you don't have to worry about grain since you won't be giving porcine enzymes because this is not an EPI dog..... then give a kibble that :

1. has BOTH meat and meat meal in it.... there appears to be "deficiencies" if you feed a food with only one or another.
2. if you are including a food with grain, brown rice is actually more nutritious than white rice, although white rice is also good
3. Natural Balance is a good quality kibble
4. Since this might be IBD, IBS, or very bad SID or Leaky Gut (to name a few things).....a lot of times it is not simply that there is an issue with a certain protein... but often times.... it is some strange weird minor ingredient in the dog food that can be causing gastro issues with a particular dog... SOOOOOOOoooo going with a "Limited" commercial diet is a good place to start cause it doesn't have a lot of extra minor ingredients in it.......

FYI....If this was an EPI dog, to start with, i would not suggest a food with brown rice (grain) in it........ however.... since this is not an EPI dog, grain is not an issue and very often grain (fiber) can actually help SID to some degree :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

mollyseven
Member
Posts: 18
Country: Canada
Pet name: walter
My name: Denise

Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by mollyseven » 04 May 2022, 08:37

Wow thanks again such great info.
I was last night searching out grain free limited ingredient food and wondering if I could find affordable raw food for him. Most seem to be about 350.00/month though seeing as he will be in the 100-110lb range when fully grown and that’s a lot of money per month on food only
Do you think raw is better for this kind of gut …. What about the Natural balance puppy duck and potato limited ingredient grain free ? Is grain free a bad thing?
He’s been eating Hills Science Diet Large breed puppy Lamb and loves it and it’s 4% fibre but I also looked at sensitive hills and Purina but it’s overwhelming ….
I’m going to order slippery elm today as well

farbo
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Country: Armenia
Pet name: Farbo
My name: Jim

Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by farbo » 21 Oct 2022, 07:39

Olesia711 wrote: 03 May 2022, 19:44 The cTLI at 20 means (at least for now) this is not EPI.

The reason why i honed in on Natural Balance Beef & Brown Rice is because if you are going to feed a kibble and you don't have to worry about grain since you won't be giving porcine enzymes because this is not an EPI dog..... then give a kibble that :

1. has BOTH meat and meat meal in it.... there appears to be "deficiencies" if you feed a food with only one or another.
2. if you are including a food with grain, brown rice is actually more nutritious than white rice, although white rice is also good
3. Natural Balance is a good quality kibble
4. Since this might be IBD, IBS, or very bad SID or Leaky Gut (to name a few things).....a lot of times it is not simply that there is an issue with a certain protein... but often times.... it is some strange weird minor ingredient in the dog food that can be causing gastro issues with a particular dog... SOOOOOOOoooo going with a "Limited" commercial diet is a good place to start cause it doesn't have a lot of extra minor ingredients in it.......

FYI....If this was an EPI dog, to start with, i would not suggest a food with brown rice (grain) in it........ however.... since this is not an EPI dog, grain is not an issue and very often grain (fiber) can actually help SID to some degree :)

Thanks, Olesia711 for the really helpful and positive info.

AustinDillard
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Country: United States
State: Connecticut
Pet name: Fred

Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by AustinDillard » 21 Oct 2022, 12:05

That's right, if it weren't for EPI,slope unblocked eating would have been simpler.

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Madelon
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Re: SIBO but not EPI…. Odd ?

Post by Madelon » 22 Oct 2022, 09:18

Hi! I just wanted to pop on and mention to keep an eye out in the future for EPI symptoms. My Doc was originally tested at 3mos old due to symptoms and his TLI was 16 but folate was high and based on symptoms the vet treated him for SID. He did great and thrived like a normal pup. At 13 mos old he was tested again based on symptoms appearing again and this time his TLI was less than .4 - it takes time for the pancreas to atrophy so hopefully that's not what you're going to be dealing with but just thought I would mention it.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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