New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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ed7385
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New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by ed7385 » 25 Sep 2018, 12:37

Howdy all,

I'm an active foster for dogs with varying issues, but this one might have topped all previous dogs in the amount of research required department.

The story- Roxanne was pulled from a local shelter severely emaciated and ravenous for a GSD rescue group the end of April. She was an owner surrender. After numerous problems, she was finally diagnosed and put into boarding, where she has been for months. I finally had an open space and scooped her up (her medical needs made most of the fosters in the group unable and scared to take her). In the months since her shelter pull, she has gained only 2.5lbs. But now, she's at my house, and we're on the path to health and hopefully a forever home. I'm working on training and getting her stable and adoptable, which has me down the rabbit hole of research. We have been to the vet just this week, to start tweaking and customizing her plan.

Currently i have her on PancreaPowder Plus, 2tsp with water mixed with 2 cups Victor, 3 times a day. Weekly b12 shots and a course of metronidazole to help kick any other 'bugs' in her system (remember, shelter then boarding can make a tough combo) I'm awaiting test results on her stool, urine and fasting blood work to see what else the vet recommends. I don't want to change too much too fast (obviously) but I'm also anxious to help this poor girl and actively work on training more.

My question of the day is about CBD or Hemp oil. Because she is fairly high strung (could be the malinois in her too) and obviously has inflammation and probably pain, from what I know it could be beneficial. But I'm not finding much info on it for EPI exactly, so I'm wondering if anyone has tried it?
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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Olesia711
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Sep 2018, 18:44

First let me thank you profusely for opening your heart and your home to Roxanne!!!! Thank YOU!
BTW.... she is super cute.... and she looks very happy too!

Just a heads up... if you do not see optimal improvement to her poo condition.... after about a week to 10 days... then ask the vet to swap out the Metro for some Tylan antibiotic powder (for a total of 30-45 days/twice daily).
If you still do not see consistent improvement after about a couple of weeks with a switch to Tylan (if needed).... then look at a food change...

However, my guess is that under your care, Roxanne will start to improve in short order :) ... oh... and just in case you haven't yet.....be sure to try and feed approx 150% of what a dog Roxanne's size requires.... but feed in smaller portions just more meals throughout the day... this also helps.

Now to sort of answer your CBD oil question..... supposedly CBD oil works on some types of pain/inflammation and not on others..... EPI untreated does hurt.. but once properly treated, i don't think they feel pain from EPI itself.. However, SID that accompanies EPI can often be more troublesome/painful for many dogs, but yet some dogs aren't bothered at all by SID..... so my personal thought on this is if you think Roxanne is experiencing pain, then sure, try some CBD oil.... it won't hurt and it also will not interfere with EPI.........but if she is not acting like she is in pain....then it probably is not necessary.

In the meantime.... i will try to find the research that alludes to what type of pain CBD Oil helps and doesn't help...........and will post here.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Sep 2018, 19:05

Okay... here is a research abstract on CBD Oil for dogs (mainly regarding pain from Osteo).

However.... there is a thread here on the forum where some of our members have used CBD Oil on the dogs with success... if you are interested in reading some of our member's assessment of using CBD Oil.... check out this thread:

"Strange Episodes of Shaking"

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99&hilit=cbd+oil&si ... ddf4d#p854
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Riley's Mom
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Riley's Mom » 26 Sep 2018, 08:51

Welcome to the forum!
Thank you for the work you do to help the ones that get overlooked.......I'm glad you are giving this girl a chance.
I don't have anything to add to the CBD oil question, but I just wanted to welcome you.
Please keep us posted and ask questions as you have them.
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

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ed7385
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by ed7385 » 26 Sep 2018, 10:36

Thank you!

I think the vet started with Metro because they have it in stock, but I'm making a note of the tylan, just in case. Waiting on labs to come back this morning. This is going to be a tough girl to find a home for, but I'm sure I can get her stable and in a forever home!

I'll read up more on the CBD oil. I'm mainly interested in the anxiety and inflammation benefits. Her malinois side has her a little intense, and if I could help her anxiety and general health, it's worth a try. I'll post here if I give it a go.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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Madelon
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Madelon » 26 Sep 2018, 22:06

THANK YOU so much for fostering this sweet pup!!! Olesia has given great advice so I won't muddy the waters. The only thing I will add is that when you are done with the weekly shots we recommend continuing B12 supplementing - you just have to find the right maintenance dose for the dog. One option is to switch to WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills or you can continue with the shots. Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and everything that comes out. Please know we are all here to help guide you through this and thank you again so so so much for fostering and giving this baby a chance to thrive and know what unconditional love is.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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Jean
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Jean » 27 Sep 2018, 10:15

i wonder, can you explain the intenseness and anxiety

my girl has always been reactive, and nervous, which comes out sometime as aggression, but only towards dogs

Metronidazole has side effects

Tylan does not

Trust me, once you have her sorted out, you will have a much happier dog

I have a friend with EPI, and she describes the pain when she had intestinal pain, as worse than menstrual pain, so its bad

so in with the Tylan

so what are your thoughts on future foods, and B12 supplement

the anxiety is likely to be uncertainty, dogs need continuity, we got Kara at 5 months, she was not socialised, and had never met a dog, or been on a lead, or a road

nightmare

we have some failed fosterers here, who have ended up with their dog permanently

just a thought

jean UK
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Sep 2018, 12:03

You are very welcome for the research abstract on CBD oil...(for pain)... but with regards to calming anxiety down....in the the thread (i posted the link to) that sounds like more of what you are looking for... in the thread, various members here have chimed in that they tried CBD oil and they feel that it did indeed calm their pup's anxiety down.........

Yea, all vets seem to have a supply of Metro on hand :) .... i would stay the course with the Metro BUT, like you plan, if it doesn't seem to really work as expected, then talk to your vet about Tylan .

Please keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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ed7385
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State: Texas

Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by ed7385 » 28 Sep 2018, 14:21

Jean wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 10:15 i wonder, can you explain the intenseness and anxiety

my girl has always been reactive, and nervous, which comes out sometime as aggression, but only towards dogs

Metronidazole has side effects

Tylan does not

Trust me, once you have her sorted out, you will have a much happier dog

I have a friend with EPI, and she describes the pain when she had intestinal pain, as worse than menstrual pain, so its bad

so in with the Tylan

so what are your thoughts on future foods, and B12 supplement

the anxiety is likely to be uncertainty, dogs need continuity, we got Kara at 5 months, she was not socialised, and had never met a dog, or been on a lead, or a road

nightmare

we have some failed fosterers here, who have ended up with their dog permanently

just a thought

jean UK
Hi Jean! I'm quoting you so I can answer your questions. First, I'm continuing with the Metro instead of Tylan since it was started and I have the prescription filled. I'm trying to only give it to her AFTER she eats, to minimize side effects.

For food, the rescue gave me Victor, so I'm doing that for now. But, I'm considering switching. I don't want to change too much at once, so we'll finish most of this batch before I do anything. She is on weekly b12 injections for a month, then hopefully switch to a supplement easier for an adopter to handle. I've found a local butcher that can supply pork pancreas, so I'm going to add some of that in as well. She's not eating the Victor as well as I would like, I think the smell of the enzymes is off putting. So I'm considering adjusting the enzymes and adding a bit of pancreas.

Now, intense is just the best word I know to describe this dog. She's intensely smart and responsive to me, but also has a heavy prey drive. She will crate on command, but if she is not really ready to be crated, she will bend the wire crate attempting escape. Some of this no doubt will settle in the next few weeks, but I do not think she will change completely.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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ed7385
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State: Texas

Re: New, sorting it out, curious about CBD oil

Post by ed7385 » 28 Sep 2018, 14:29

Oh, also we have quite a few foster fails in my group too! Most notably, we had a pregnant GSD that welped at my house. It was a tough group, momma was malnourished, but we had 5 healthy pups :)

And this dog seems well socialized to humans, not to other dogs. She appears reactive and sometimes aggressive to other dogs. On top of the EPI, I'm working on sorting this out as well, because I believe she can work through this and will be easier to adopt out.

On top of all of it, I really just need her to eat. She's not interested in eating the food, or she's just eating enough to barely maintain weight, surely not to gain. I'm currently sprinkling parmesan on her food and adding a bit of canned food I have on hand to get her to finish her food.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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