Need help

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Kzh
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Posts: 62
Country: Malta

Need help

Post by Kzh » 03 Oct 2018, 09:26

Hi
Thanks for the add. I have a 9 month old who I had since he was 4 months. And from day 1 I have been dealing with diarrhea and a pup who is all skin and bones no matter how much he ate. I have changed kibble, he ll do well for a week or two than its back to loose stools. Took an allergy test and we found that he is allergic to all protein except chicken, rabbit, deer and salmon. So I got him a grain free salmon and potatoes. We did fine for 2 weeks than diarrhea really bad with blood.
Now we think it is EPI so we started on Creon 10000. We have been on it for 3 days and I am feeding Brit care grain free for juniors. My question is I am trying to feed 3 times a day, how much Creon can I give with each meal?

Sorry for the long post but I am so worried about him. Another thing every time I took his blood profile it came normal. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Paige's Guardian
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Posts: 45
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Need help

Post by Paige's Guardian » 04 Oct 2018, 06:58

Paige's Guardian (Conny)

Paige, 7-year old Great Dane.

Dx: Malabsorption at age 9 months of age. Low Folate. On plant enzymes for 1.5 years. Experienced bloat 2x and Pancreatitis. Switched to Enzyme Diane. TLI tested but not low.
7/2018-- recovering from another episode of Pancreatitis. cPL >600. Now, starting to need more enzymes with food. Will have lab work again, once cPL is stable then, will repeat TLI.
7/2018--cPL <50 (normal) SID-Tylan 3/8 tsp 2x/day
8/2018---moving towards addition of dry dog food (FirstMate Ocean) and tapering off Tylan.
9/2018--1/8 tsp tylan in am. More dry dog food (FirstMate Ocean)

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Olesia711
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Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Need help

Post by Olesia711 » 05 Oct 2018, 12:34

First since you are having issues with the proteins except for "chicken, rabbit, deer and salmon. So I got him a grain free salmon and potatoes. We did fine for 2 weeks than diarrhea really bad with blood. " ... my strong suggestion is to skip trying one food after another, that may become expensive, limiting and cause your pup to get sick, like this last time..... dealing with food sensitivities/allergies is enough to drive anyone crazy no matter what you try.

SO..... my personal suggestion would be to
#1 talk to your vet about trying a true HYDROLYZED food, and i would try Royal Canin "Ultamino" first before trying the others simply because it appears that the Ultamino food seems to work better with most of our dogs- -however no guarantees.... just overall the batting average with our EPI dogs seems to better with most on this food..........not all but most

#2 regarding the CREON dosing:
(a) start with 10,000 or 12,000 CREON. open, sprinkle the capsule on the food, serve immediately.... watch the reaction for 3-5 days..... if this doesn't work then
(b) give 10,000 or 12,000 CREON whole capsule about 3-5 minutes prior to serving the meal....watch the reaction for 3-5 days..... if this doesn't work then
(c) if still not great..... from your observations decide which technique appear to have the most positive reaction but just not 100% in and increase the CREON dose by another 1/2 capsule.....
(d) if the 1+1/2 capsule improved things but still not perfect (with whichever technique you honed in on) THEN increase the dose to 2 CREON capsules.

Many of our EPI pups do fine on 10,000 or 12,000 CREON.... HOWEVER.... some don't respond well no matter what technique you use until the dose is increased (depends on the individual dog) and many often end up taking the CREON 25,000 dose.... BUT... the only way to know what your dog really needs is to try the CREON in step-by-step increments starting at the 10, 000 or 12,000 dose.
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

Kzh
Member
Posts: 62
Country: Malta

Re: Need help

Post by Kzh » 05 Oct 2018, 14:31

Hi Ollesi. Thankyou for responding to my post and all the info you gave me. My head is spinning with all this stuff and I feel so sad and helpless when I see my beautiful pup in such condition.
Monday I started giving him Creon 10. I am giving it to him whole, 5 minutes before each meal. His poo was better. Than today he made a pudding like poop.😔. I feed him 3 times a day. Is it OK if I give him a capsule of Creon before each meal every time? Would I be overdosing him if I give 3 capsules a day??? And if yes is it OK if I increase?

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Olesia711
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Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Need help

Post by Olesia711 » 05 Oct 2018, 16:37

YES!!!! He is supposed to have enzymes (CREON in your case) with every single meal . No, you will not overdose him as long as you give him food with the enzymes.
as you are supposed to with every single meal / and no snacks or cheating with treats in-between.

If the poos after maybe 3 days are almost normal but still not quite... then increase the CREON dose by half a pill. (just open the capsule split the contents into 2 piles (don't worry if each pile of pellets is not exact) and give 1+1/2 capsule and then assess if that is the magic amount.

keep us posted :)
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

Kzh
Member
Posts: 62
Country: Malta

Re: Need help

Post by Kzh » 06 Oct 2018, 00:47

Olesia, thankyou do much. I will start doing that. And I will let you know❤️.

Kzh
Member
Posts: 62
Country: Malta

Re: Need help

Post by Kzh » 06 Oct 2018, 00:49

Olesia another thing. I read that Creon is pork bases. My dog is allergic to pork. Would that cause a problem?

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Jean
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Posts: 650
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Need help

Post by Jean » 06 Oct 2018, 04:55

your question about porcine enzymes has fascinated me for years

My girl is intollerant of most proteins, including pork, but tollerates enzymes well

totally weird

my advice is to start a journal, and change one thing at a time, leave maybe 3-5 days and record

what about B12 supplement, and does your pup have rumbling tummy noises

jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Kzh
Member
Posts: 62
Country: Malta

Re: Need help

Post by Kzh » 06 Oct 2018, 09:36

Hi Jean. Thankyou for answering my post. No I never gave him B12. Last blood test we took it was OK. That was 2 months ago. At the beginning he had a lot of stomach rumblings, and farting. My vet always said it was stress as I got him from abroad at 4 months old. He doesn't anymore. But he has cow pile stools and diarrhea on and off. I am taking a Epi test on Monday to make sure.
And yes I am making a journal. You guys are great with all the advice you give. 😊

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Olesia711
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Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Need help

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Oct 2018, 23:44

Ahh... the pork allergy. We have had mutliple people on the forum over the years who's dog had a pork allergy, and like Jean attested to... they were able to take the enteric coated pork enzymes with no problem (CREON is pork enzymes enteric coated) ... and some were even able to take powdered pork enzymes too with no problem.

BUT... every so often we do run into a dog that cannot tolerate the pork enzymes because of a sever pork allergy... in which case we 1st suggest trying beef enzymes (have to use more) and if that doesn't work... THEN we suggest taking an allergy med.... or "try" plant enzymes but then that gets tricky cause usually plant enzymes are not potent enough....

I would continue with the CREON...

the sloppy poos you are seeing now are most likely SID, especially since you had a good poo and now they are back to sloppy.... has your vet prescribed Tylan yet? the stomach rumbling and farting are typical signs of SID...... many times people think the enzymes are not working not when they are, but the problem is SID....... we often try to address SID with alternatives, like Slippery Elm first before we resort to antibiotics.... but with a bunch of allergies.... i don't think i would try an alternative with your pup but rather i would ask the vet to prescribe some Tylan antibiotic.

Also do look into B12... simply because SID munchies away at B12 stores..... so it is like a vicious cycles.... with EPI ...everything is connected.... and B12 not in the upper mid-range can in itself cause loose stools too with EPI..........
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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