A really outlandish question

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Post Reply
ericjohnson
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Alabama

A really outlandish question

Post by ericjohnson » 05 Oct 2018, 13:25

This is a stab in the dark.

Daisy has been away at a pro trainer since June. Her weight was stable and the epi was under control.

I picked her up for a vacation at home while the pro was going to be away. That was on 9/29.

When we got home, I immediately recognized that her weight was down and the poop was not normal. The pro had commented that her marking was down. Don't need to go into all the retails of advanced retriever training but what it boiled down to, when the object to be retrieved didn't break the horizon, she didn't seem to see it. She'd still go and most times would hunt until she found it but clearly her visual acuity was reduced compared to when the object broke the horizon.

So, we had her eyes examined as she was due for a CERF/OFA exam anyway. Nothing was found.

The question is, is there anything about epi that would reduce vision?

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Olesia711 » 05 Oct 2018, 18:40

So sorry to hear that this is happening......

As far as we know EPI does not have any impact on vision.....HOWEVER..... weight loss and vision problems.... first thing i would do is have your vet check for diabetes............

I hope your vet can figure out what is going on and that whatever it is is fixable....Please keep us posted!
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

User avatar
Kodis Mom
Staff
Posts: 44
Location: Custer, WA.
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Kodis Mom » 05 Oct 2018, 19:27

No question is outlandish...but I have nothing to add. I will be following. Good luck .
Kodi
B. 8/19/2010 Diagnosed at 11 months.
Kodi is now on Natures Logic turkey and/or pork kibble, 2 cups with 2 teaspoons of enzymes, 1/8 teaspoon of ground coriander, 1/16 teaspoon of cinnamon and ground fennel seed (for tummy upsets) twice a day, plus one one B12 capsule from Wonderlabs. She has been very stable and on occasion needs a dose ofTylan.
She is our second GSD with EPI. It was not so scary this time ! And thank goodness for epi4dogs.com !

User avatar
Madelon
President
Posts: 601
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Madelon » 05 Oct 2018, 21:45

All questions are good questions. I'm so sorry you're going through this but highly recommend talking to your vet about diabetes as Olesia mentioned. We have a tendency to think everything is related to the EPI but they get other dog diseases/conditions as well.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 650
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Jean » 06 Oct 2018, 05:03

a question not asked is an oportunity lost

we have a staff member, Fiona, who's dog is having sight issues, but I dont think its related, but then, its possible

so the vets think everything is ok, maybe your pup just doesnt like the programme, or is not suitable, are you intending to show her etc.

but you need to sort out the weight issue

my advice is to go back to basics and keep a journal, did the trainer follow all of your instructions on food and enzymes, how much weight loss is there

jx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

ericjohnson
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Alabama

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by ericjohnson » 06 Oct 2018, 10:37

I've given instructions to the trainer and feel she has followed them. I just don't think she or I were aware of the heat and exercise issue. She probably needs a boost in her caloric intake and were investigating how to do this. WE can't just incfrease the amount of food as that would merely increase the amount of poop.

As for the sight issue, there is nothing this dog likes better than birds so it's doubtful that motivation is the issue. I didn't think epi and sight could be related but had to ask since both are in the same dog.

Thanks.

Eric

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 650
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Jean » 06 Oct 2018, 11:08

Its imossible to say with any assurance that EPI and sight issues are related without research results, and I am not sure there are any specific ones

If only they could talk !

my girl was totally movement motivated, sadly she has DM now, so, she still wants to do things but can't, it certainly is possible that calorie intake and more exercise has caused weight loss, so I am wondering if Olesia has any thoughts on adding caloriesand, or, more food , and poo output, I will ask the question, I have never had the issue, Kara has always been high drive but has eaten what we gave her,

I wonder if you could tell us why you are concerned about poo output, and what the weight loss was/is what weight is she now, I note Olesia asked about diabetes, has that been discounted

I am grateful of the question, as it starts debate, and you never know what a forum throws up

if you find anything out please let me know

Jx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 650
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Jean » 06 Oct 2018, 11:18

i have looked through your other posts and see you have a Toller, I have never heard of them, totally beautiful
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 914
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Oct 2018, 13:06

Hi Eric,

SOme of our EPI dogs will loose a little extra weight simply from the stress of an activity / anxiousness or nerves.
Other times, it can be a sign of SID becoming uncontrolled again
Then yet other times, it could very well be that the B12 is slipping.......

As you can see, the answer is not simple so it is a process of trying things one at a time to see what is triggering the weight loss.

As far as feeding more, if she has lost weight, i am assuming her body needs the add'l calories. If she is receiving the proper EPI balance of treatment.... then most of the extra food/nutrients should be absorbed by the body. If she starts pooing volumes.. that means something is not right...........

To put on healthy weight, with many of these dogs, we give them MCT fat which is usually very well tolerated by most of these EPI dogs, (and it helps dry skin) ... we give cold-pressed/extra virgin coconut oil. Just don't give coconut oil from Walmart ... i personally use Jarrow's extra virgin coconut oil i buy it fromw Swansons, but you can also get it from Amazon. Start with 1/2 tsp to make sure it is well tolerated.. if poo okay (not greasy/sloppy) after a few days, increase to 1 tsp per meal.

The other thing you can try is more protein..... just add real meat to the diet.

ANother thing you might want to try (as a 1-thing at-a-time) or weight, is to slightly increase the enzymes by 1/8 tsp... it might be that she just needs more enzymes now to effectively absorb all the nutrients in her food..................

Or you can swap foods to a more higher calorie food.......

These are jsut some weight gaining tips.... there are others, but hopefully this will help..
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

User avatar
Jean
Staff
Posts: 650
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: A really outlandish question

Post by Jean » 07 Oct 2018, 05:18

just one curiosity

have you been advised to keep poos at a low rate ?

j
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests