Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Madelon
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Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Madelon » 01 Dec 2018, 09:12

I'm so sorry you and your pup have been struggling. Not sure if this has been mentioned previously but have you tried feeding on a flat plate or using a stinky topper? If not, maybe try that while waiting for the Creon and capsules. Also have you looked for mouth sores?

With regard to the B12 - you can either open it up and sprinkle on top of the food (or mix it in ) or give the capsule whole - it does not have to be incubated with the food.

Glad you were able to get her to eat a full meal. Hang in there.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Caroline831

Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Caroline831 » 02 Dec 2018, 16:43

We're looking forward to trying the Creon. Thanks so much again. I know they are crazy pricey, but at the very least, I’m hoping that using those for a bit will help her stabilize. She will be eating regularly and getting the enzymes which will allow me to focus on SIBO and other related things. If I can manage that, then maybe we can go back to the enzyme powders at some point later down the road.
Results have been inconsistent the past few days.
Stools have been her typical formed looking, but somewhat soft when picked up. Dark color with some hint of green/yellow, or medium brown color.

Two different times when she’s had enzymes in the capsules, I’ve noticed she seems to have stomach issues.
Friday evening- gave her food and enzyme capsules. Seemed alright for a while, but all of a sudden, puked up her food. Puke still had full kibble pieces, not overly digested. I gave her Cerenia and later that night, I gave her just a little bit of food with intubated enzyme powder directly on it and she ate it.

Last night- I gave her 26mg of Cerenia about 15-20 minutes prior (due to puking the night before). Fed her around ~830pm with enzymes in capsules etc. I didn’t notice any obvious discomfort until around ~1:30am. She was doing lots of lip smacking, yawning, burped. She climbed on top of me and was trying to stretch her body out in obvious discomfort. I ended up giving her two Gabapentin pills for pain and she fell asleep.

Also, on two occasions, I actually gave her enzymes poured directly on food and intubated and she ATE them! Once, my roommate walked in and I think she got so excited it encouraged her to eat. Both times, she seemed okay (she’s just super inconsistent about whether she will eat them. More recently she’d been refusing which is why I had been putting it in capsules. There isn’t any pattern with toppers/broth etc that I’ve noticed yet.

Anyway, I still don't feel like we've got things totally figured out. A bit surprised by the puking. Could it be connected to the enzymes being in pills instead of powder? I feel like she's had nausea etc throughout, but am not sure about cause.

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Olesia711
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Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Olesia711 » 02 Dec 2018, 19:34

that lip smacking, puking, etc... and the "iffy" poo condition..... all sounds like SID......but why she would puke when the enzymes are in capsules.. and be fine with the enzymes directly on the food..... is beyond me... UNLESS she has some sort of allergy to something in the actual capsule itself.
Or... maybe too much enzymes/caustic when given like that??? ... what i mean is that maybe she reacts this way because the enzyme powder is not being distributed among food particles- -making it more caustic ????? (just thinking out loud here... i really don't know the answer)

Well.. the CREON should arrive tomorrow.....because of the delivery method (enteric coated) CREON is a lot less potent then the powder...... very curious as to how she handles CREON.

Keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Caroline831

Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Caroline831 » 05 Dec 2018, 12:15

hello!
Loo started on the Creon yesterday evening. She seemed to eat most of the food. I will say, she really doesn't seem to have much of an appetite and she's still dealing with a LOT of SID symptoms (gurgles, burps, yawning, licking lips). SHe has been on Tylan for 1 month now, though she was only taking 260mg for the first 3 weeks or so. I have been giving about 1.5 capsules for maybe 5 days. She only has about 3 days left of TYlan and I am wondering what I should do for the next steps.

She also doesn't have much of an appetite. This am, she only ate about half of her food, and she ate it slowly. I will check again for sores, she hasn't had them thus far. I am guessing it's connected to the SID?

My question is what to do next: I'll touch base with the vet as well, but i only have about 3 days left of the Tylan so I am wondering what you think would be best to try next to help with the upper indigestion. Switch to Metronidazole? I have 250mg tablets at my house already, so that is helpful. Slippery elm? prebiotics? probiotics?

For each meal (2x/day) I am giving her:
1/2 capsule of the wonderlabs b12 (does this have a taste? If so, i suppose its possible that could be causing her not to want the food?)
380mg tylan.
1 creon 10k capsule poured on food.
~1 cup purina EN gastro food

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Miss Maddie Moo
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Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 05 Dec 2018, 15:00

Acid reflux can also make a dog not want to eat i prefer to try slippery elm for this...but also i would try and get another course of tylan as you said the first three weeks the dose was wrong...Metro can have side affects.
B12 i used to give the capsule whole andmy gal would eat anything i dont think there is a taste not something i have heard mentioned before the tylan is the nasty bugger but i assume you encapsulate this???
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
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Caroline831

Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Caroline831 » 05 Dec 2018, 18:51

yup, tylan is in capsules.
How long does it take to notice if Tylan is working or not? Can you do slippery elm AND tylan? Is Tylan is only by prescription these days or can i get if elsewhere.

is there a specific place to buy slippery elm?

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Olesia711
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Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2018, 11:49

Hi.

Because, as you suspect, the Tylan was under-dosed, i'd ask the vet for another prescrip of Tylan... and if you do not see improvement within the next 2-3 weeks on this 2nd course of Tylan i would go back to the vet and talk to him about changing the antibiotic to metro (just try/but watch) or even Amoxy.
And no......you no longer can get Tylan without a prescription :(

SLippery Elm is a mucilage so it will very very slightly inhibit a little of the Tylan. Usually it is so slight, that i don't worry about giving it together, HOWEVER.... in your case, i personally would err on the side of caution and give the slippery elm 2 hrs away from the Tylan.

I personally am very impressed with Wonderlabs's Slippery ELm..... i used to buy it from Amazon, but after trying Wonderlab's product, it is WAY fresher :) the link is:
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K97024

The B12 doesn't (or shouldn't) have a taste.

Have you tried feeding less? jsut squeak in another meal to make sure she gets enough food throughout the day? Sometimes too much food on a plate turns them off.

OR......... it could be that she just doesn't like the gastro food.
Have you tried a different food (i forgot if there is a reason that she needs to be on this particular food) ???

THis non-interest in food could very well be (as suggested above) that she doesn't want to eat cause her tummy feels like crap because of SID, which we know need fixing :(
And the only other thing i can think of to address this .....is again...... ask your vet to refill the Tylan... but shorten the observation time- -if you do not see improvement within 2 weeks, then talk to your vet about trying a different anti instead of waiting 3 weeks....................
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Dec 2018, 11:51

Oh... i meant to tell you... with the CREON.... it is a trial an error thingy cause a dog's digestive pH is different than a human's digestive pH and CREON was designed to activate according to a human's pH..... SOOOOOOoooooo all this to say... keep a close eye on her stools.... let me know how they are after 2-3 days, if possible post/email me poop pictures... so i can assess if you need to adjust how you are giving the CREON or not :)

thanks!
-o
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Caroline831

Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Caroline831 » 08 Dec 2018, 18:17

We've requested a script of Tylan 375mg... Unfortunately, the pharmacy that makes it in capsules is closed for the weekend, but the vet is giving me some Tylan tablets to get her through the weekend... I'm assuming these are the same, just have a terrible taste so tend to be avoided? I'll make sure it's super covered up.

To clarify, can Slippery elm be taken at the same time as Tylan?

Symptoms are the same, not a big appetite, nausea symptoms etc. Poops seem alright, 1-3.

I had her on Purina EN gastro because the vet had suggested it initially when she wasn't feeling well and we didn't know what was going on. I haven't changed it up until this point because I didn't want to change too many things and I also wonder if EPI isn't Loo's only issue. She really doesn't fit the profile of a typical EPI dog... (i realize there is NO typical EPI dog, but still). She never lost a lot of weight. She just kept having episodes of stomach pains, nausea and stretching and whining... SHe's also historically had a very sensitive stomach and anything could upset it. (aka- a neighbor wants to give her doggy "ice cream"... she spends the evening crying in pain). Before this, i had her on Farmina N+D Adult dog food for digestion (https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food/n&d ... -lamb.html). She hasn't been interested in that either when I tried to give her a few bites (at this point, it's probably a few months old so that might now help!). She seems much more willing to eat wet food, so I suppose i'll just try and stick to that for now (either the Purina or another one). I'd rather not convert her to wet food all together, but will do whatever works for now. I'm down for any suggestion with regards to the dog food.

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Jean
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Re: Enzymes-My pup smells awful!

Post by Jean » 09 Dec 2018, 07:21

poor Lou

she is tiny, Kara has always been sensitive to food, we even started to top her food with cat food, only a teaspoon but it made her eat, anything smelly sometimes works, like tripe, again its trial and error

I use Ranitidine 30 mins before a meal, and it has worked for us for years for acid reflux

dont forget to keep a diary

j
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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