Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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ed7385
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Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by ed7385 » 27 Nov 2018, 20:49

Hi all!

Some of you might remember my other foster dog Roxanne, who was diagnosed with EPI, and we got her stable and adopted and she is SO loved. It's one of my best adoption stories of the year! Well, it's a german shepherd rescue, so we have another dog with EPI as well. I'm not fostering him, but I've been talking to the foster. We're having trouble getting him to gain weight :( So I'm going to throw out there what I know about him and his current diet and see if anyone here has a suggestion. Poor guy is still skin and bones.

If you want to see his pictures (although we try not to post ones that look so terrible) his profile is here :) He's got a great personality, but I need to get him healthy!
https://www.ghgsdr.org/adopt/available-gsds/altuve

First Altuve was on PancreaPlus and Victor Chicken and Rice kibble, he wasn't gaining weight so they switched him to a fish based food- Purina Pro Plan for sensitive skin and cow enzymes instead of the porcine based enzymes. Here's what the foster says-
The food is special diet for sensitive skin, cow enzyme, tylan, acid controller, acid reducer and B12 shot. We just changed the food and I think that is the cause. It was suggested by Diane since he wasnt gaining but he went the other way. We also are using cow instead of pig but Mona doesnt think that would affect him. Im moving back to the Victor but he wasnt gaining from it, just maintained so I am still stuck without him gaining.
At first after the food switch he gained 2 lbs and his poo improved! But this morning it was back to cow patty :( And she says she feels like he lost weight. UG.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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Madelon
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by Madelon » 27 Nov 2018, 21:25

Hey there!!! Thank you SO SO much for helping this foster out. Okay my first issue is with the enzymes - porcine is the best as it's the closest to the dog's original pancreas enzymes - I know I'm not saying that medically correct but basically the porcine is the best option unless the dog has a TRUE allergy to porcine which in all of the years has been a very small few. The next issue is likely the food. I don't know which Purina Pro Plan they are using but it appears they all have grain as well as the Victor. We recommend grain free and low fiber because the fiber interferes with the efficacy of the enzymes. The next thing would be to make sure they are preparing the enzymes correctly. Not sure with the cow enzymes if it's the same dosage as the porcine but with porcine it's 1tsp per cup of kibble mixed in with a little luke warm water. Also I would question the B12 - how often are they getting a shot? Some dogs do not respond as well to the shots and need the WonderLab Pet Factor pills which have intrinsic factor which helps in absorbing the B12. SO, in my opinion, I would switch to a grain free, low fiber food, switch to the porcine enzymes and add the WonderLab pills.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Jean
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by Jean » 28 Nov 2018, 03:47

hi there and welcome again

i am confused here, or stupid, what enzymes are being used ? is it fresh bovine pancreas, and if so why , at the start you are better with porcine enzymes from e.g. Enzyme Diane

is Altuve being fed 150% of what his weight SHOULD be

he looks so like my Kara was, these Purina foods are good, but this one has rice, and Maize in it, its better to go grain free, no rice, and no chicken fat, and you need calories, and several meals a day

why the sensitive skin variety ?

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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ed7385
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by ed7385 » 28 Nov 2018, 08:21

You know, I agree with you guys...

He has gained a few pounds but, but not like he should. Hence the food and enzyme switches. We know it's just a matter of finding the right combo of treatments, so the foster is trying to find what works. And is frustrated and feels bad for the pup.

She is feeding him 6 cups a day (because an average full grown GSD would eat 4 cups) and prepping it with lukewarm water and giving it the 20 min to incubate.

I don't know the brand of enzyme she's using now, I can ask.

What do you guys think about the acid controller and reducer though? Is that necessary?

Does anyone have a recommendation for the next food to try? The Victor food is gluten free, but not grain free.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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ed7385
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by ed7385 » 28 Nov 2018, 08:22

The Purina Pro Sensitive was recommended to try, so we did. At first, he gained 2 lbs and finally had some quality poo. I'm wondering if the enzyme switch is more to blame than the food.
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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ed7385
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Country: United States
State: Texas

Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by ed7385 » 28 Nov 2018, 10:01

Also, the injections are once a week
Roxanne, foster dog extraordinaire, GSD/malinois mix (Lord help me with the high energy)
Diagnosed 6/18, new to foster home 9/18 and let the treatment begin
PancreaPowder Plus 2tsp, 3x/day mixed with 2 cups Victor, weekly b12 injections, metronidazole

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by Jean » 28 Nov 2018, 11:33

We use an acid reducer, 30 mins before food

Really need to know what the enzyme is

Love that you are helping with this

J
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Nov 2018, 16:50

HI there..... glad to hear that Roxanne's recovery and adoption is a wonderful success story.... WAHOO!!!


Now..... about Altuve.

First, Madelon gave you very sound advice, as far as pancreas goes.... when possible use powdered porcine/pig enzymes. They are the best and most closely aligned with the dog's natural pancreas enzyme function. However, if using raw panacreas.... THAT is when you opt for cow pancreas to avoid any possible bacteria with pig pancreas - -however if you ever use beef powdered enzymes you need to use more that pig powdered enzymes!

My guess is that it is a multitude of factors as to why Altuve is not doing as well as expected.


My suggestion is as follows (and you know the drill, do one change at a time- -watch & observe for a few days to see if things improve or worsen and then move on to the next change)

FOOD
1. With current food, try increasing the amount of enzymes by an additional 1/8tsp to 1/4 tsp each meal....see if that improves the poop.... if it does, that means you need /should change the dog food that this dog food is NOT working.

2. I do think a food change is probably a big cause of the problem here... although i will still cover other possibilities - so.....my suggestion is, for a food change, try SPORT food, grain free/pea free & fish based
https://www.chewy.com/sport-dog-food-el ... /dp/172138

Remember... until weight is gained back..... feed 150% of what is required... feed smaller portions, just more meals throughout the day... 3 meals will suffice. :)

ENZYMES
i strongly recommend EnzymeDiane''s powdered pig enzymes or PancreaPowder Plus powered's pigs' enzymes like was previously used... just know that the "extra" vitamin ingredients in Pancreapowder are not much to get excited about- -due to processing,if you want the EPI dog to have extra vitamin you really need to add separate vitamins, etc. but other than that it is a good product as is EnzymeDiane.

B12
Has the dog been rechecked to see if the B12 shots are working...sometimes in difficult/hard to gain weight cases, the underlying problem is that the Cyanocobalamin B12 (used in shots) is not working as well as expected, so then we suggest trying Wonderlabs oral B12 made with Methylcobalamin B12... You just might want to add this to the list anyway to try These capsules are cheap https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

ACID
Try slippery elm powder first to see if this alleviates the "acid" issue. (is there a noticeable acid issue- -or are acid meds given just because ??)

It can either be acid from SID which is not really acid reflux - -but rather not enough of the right kind of acid caused by gut flora imbalance......OR..... this is a bile acid issue that is not in good control in which case acid meds are helpful. The following is a list of acid meds (if really needed) to try.... there are different brands and some work better than others on dogs with acid issue- -but please have the vet decide which one and how much to use: Some options are: Pepcid AC (famotidine), Prilosec (omeprazole), ranitidine, cimetidine, sucralafate, etc….

If the Slippery Elm helps.... then this is most likely due to SID not well managed.

ANTIBIOTICS
Is Tylan being administered? If the pre+probiotics don't work, and if the food change doesn't help might want to look at giving Tylan.... the right amount for his weight for 45 days/twice daily... if his SID is really bad and uncontrollable (which at this point does not sound like it is a major problem).... what can be done is take the daily dose and divide into 3 parts (and give with breakfast, lunch and dinner) rather than 2 parts (given with breakfast & dinner).

WEIGHT GAIN
Also.... once you get the dog straightened out with the right balance of things to manage the EPI... THEN what you can try is having the client add a little bit (start with 1/2 tsp) of extra virgin / cold-pressed / organic coconut oil. This will REALLY pack on the pounds and it is a healthy fat for EPI dogs. However...it is very rich and most can tolerate it very well, but start slow... and then over the course of a week bring it up to 1 tsp per meal "if" well tolerated.

The other thing that helps is adding healthy protein sources to the meal- -as long as the pup can tolerate these things (no allergies/sensitivities/ and tolerates it well with the EPI)... what can be tried one at a time and just a little at a time to see how well it is tolerated are:
  • cottage cheese
    Ricotta cheese
    raw egg
    extra meat (fat trimmed) like chicken, pork loin, beef, etc.
    kippers (fish)
    sardines
Please let us know if the client try any of this, how it goes and how we can be of further help.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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jilbert57
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Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by jilbert57 » 29 Nov 2018, 22:59

Hi. Since he is being fed Victor, I would suggest the Salmon and Sweet Potato

https://victorpetfood.com/products/grai ... ver-canine

It might help.
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Another foster with EPI... Altuve!

Post by Jean » 30 Nov 2018, 03:23

hi

you have a good deal to digest and cascade to your fello foster parent

I would agree and persuade them to use proper enzymes,

but let us know what they are using now so we can come up with any ideas

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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