Training for EPI dogs

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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UmaAndNicole
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Country: United States
State: Pennsylvania

Training for EPI dogs

Post by UmaAndNicole » 16 Jan 2019, 16:19

Hi everyone! I’m a new EPI parent of a 9 year old GSD whom I adopted a little over a month ago. Her name is Uma.

She was diagnosed last Friday, and there was a huge overnight change in stools with treatment. She’s still not interested in anything but food or watching me (doesn’t want to play yet) but she’s a sweet old gal.

Any suggestions for how to do training with a dog who is only food motivated who can’t have treats?

Also, she started drinking a ton. She had a negative urinalysis. I saw on some other threads that people have experienced this too?

Thanks everyone! What a great resource you all are!
Uma was adopted at 9 years 10 months. She had lost 20 pounds in the shelter. After a month of chronic diarrhea we found an answer- EPI. Treatment with whatever enzyme the doc has in stock and diarrhea stopped overnight. B12 supplements 1x a week for seven weeks. Glad we found an answer for my sweetheart!

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
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Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Olesia711 » 16 Jan 2019, 17:21

Hi Nicole and welcome to you and Uma... (i think your name is Nicole.. yes?)

Anyway.. yes there are ways to get around a food motivated EPI dog while training.
Typically our mantra is no treats in between meals until your dog is stable (translation= delivering normal looking poos at a normal frequency consistently for about a month).... you're not there yet..............

SO..... what you can do is make up a little food with enzymes in it into a paste consistency and put in a squeeze bottle and everytime Uma during training Uma does what she is supposed to... the reward you can give is a little squirt from the bottle with something yummy that is already treated with enzymes.

The other thing you can do is only train with (mostly protein) rewards within 1 hour before or after an enzymed meal... something like little tiny piece of backed chicken breasts (not fat, no skin) or dehydrated pieces of chicken, beef, liver (you can buy these in a store)

Or if you have a dehydrator...you can make treats with enzymes and give just a tiny bit as rewards. Just don't go over 120 degrees when dehydrating.

What worked for me (i was in the middle of a tracking segment in Schutzhund training with my gal) and i HAD to use food to place in the "steps" .. i planned the training near a meal but i used grain-free kibble... place one itty bitty kibble in each step for training... but i discovered that at that time, my gal could only tolerate about 10 pieces total.

Each dog is different.... so you jsut have to try stuff... we also have a treat page here
https://epi4dogs.com/treats/
.... but in the beginning it is best to try and not "cheat" with anything without enzymes until you know Uma is pretty stable.

Hope this helps a little and please keep us posted.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Jean » 17 Jan 2019, 03:59

welcome from the UK

Thank you from all of us here for adopting an older dog, I assume you were aware there were issues

anyway, Olesia has covered everything treat wise

my girl is totally food orientated, but loves a squeaky anything, so that might be useful, are you looking towards obedience training or just playing

so, what food are you giving we recommend grain and rice free, a lot of EPI dogs cannot tolerate chicken in dog foods , mine included, as she has lost so much weight maybe up the amount of food given by 50% for the weight she SHOULD be

as far as enzymes go

let me introduce you to

https://enzymediane.com/

she does discounted enzymes

and keep a journal and record everything

she will play once she has stopped feeling starved

lovely story

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Barb
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Country: United States
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Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Barb » 17 Jan 2019, 08:51

How lovely of you to adopt an older dog .....with EPI! It warms my heart.

Yes, many of our dogs drink a lot of water when they first start treatment. Our Kolby even regressed to peeing in the house and he had been trained for over a year. Everything went back to normal after a few months and he has not had an issue since (he is 9 and 3/4 now).

I heartily endorse keeping a daily journal also. Record everything you give Uma each day, the amounts, and the resulting poos. This helps you to see what is working and what isn''t. It saved our sanity!

Uma is so lucky to have you. Thank you!

Barb

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Madelon
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Pet name: Doc

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Madelon » 17 Jan 2019, 21:18

Hi and welcome to the EPI family!!! Thank you SO SO SO much for rescuing this sweet girl. There are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI: 1 - Enzymes (most of us use EnzymeDiane - far less expensive than rx enzymes from the vet - starting dose is 1tsp per cup of kibble, mix in luke warm water, mix in kibble and sit 20 min before serving); 2 - B12 (EPI dogs need B12 600+ and supplementing is for life - a lot of us use WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 after the shots); 3 - Antibiotics (if dealing with SID a 45 day course of Tylan is recommended); 4 - Food (grain free 4% fiber or less).

Keep a detailed log of everything you give and everything that comes out so you know what's working and what's not and please know that we are here to help guide you along the way.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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UmaAndNicole
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Country: United States
State: Pennsylvania

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by UmaAndNicole » 19 Jan 2019, 20:22

Thank you all so much for your advice and warm wishes! I unfortunately did not know she had EPI when I adopted her, so we had a month long journey to figure out how to help her. But now that we have an answer we seem to be on the upswing! She's quite a sweetheart.

I am keeping a journal and we are doing b12 shots at home. I'm hoping she's put on some weight; we have a follow up appointment next week! Her diarrhea stopped overnight and the stools got brown and dark. Still soft, but we're still working out the dosage and feedings. I'm trying to feed her 3x a day instead of 2 to hehlp her get more calories, and I'm feeding her at least 150% of her ideal weight worth of food. She mostly sleeps and rests. It's probably her age plus being so much underweight. She was only 50 pounds from the shelter! She lost 20 pounds in two months.

Thanks for the enzyme diane link, I will certainly head there after the rx runs out. I just needed to get her started asap!

So far the water drinking has gone down to normal. Thanks again, everyone!
Uma was adopted at 9 years 10 months. She had lost 20 pounds in the shelter. After a month of chronic diarrhea we found an answer- EPI. Treatment with whatever enzyme the doc has in stock and diarrhea stopped overnight. B12 supplements 1x a week for seven weeks. Glad we found an answer for my sweetheart!

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Jan 2019, 12:50

Sounds like she is improving AND that you have a very good understanding of many of the "how-to" tricks we use to find the right balance of the recommended EPI protocol....to best suit each EPI dog.

Please know that we are very interested in hearing how Uma progresses... so even if you don't have questions, we would still love to hear how she is doing .... when you have time :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Barb » 21 Jan 2019, 19:59

That is one fine update on Uma. You have really got things under control. She is so lucky to have landed with you. Let us know how she progresses.

Barb

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by Madelon » 26 Jan 2019, 20:32

That's a good update - can't wait for more!
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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UmaAndNicole
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Country: United States
State: Pennsylvania

Re: Training for EPI dogs

Post by UmaAndNicole » 30 Jan 2019, 17:19

Uma went to the vet on Friday and she gained 4 pounds!! I think she's even put on some more weight since then. And, she finally started playing again. Now I can't get her to stop! You wouldn't know she was a senior pup if you couldn't see the cloudiness in her eyes.

I just ordered a sample from enzyme diane, we'll see if it works for her!

Thanks everyone,

Nicole
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Uma was adopted at 9 years 10 months. She had lost 20 pounds in the shelter. After a month of chronic diarrhea we found an answer- EPI. Treatment with whatever enzyme the doc has in stock and diarrhea stopped overnight. B12 supplements 1x a week for seven weeks. Glad we found an answer for my sweetheart!

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