Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Btekrony
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Location: Omaha
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Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Btekrony » 30 Jan 2019, 14:34

Hello! My 22 mos old German Shepherd, George, has been incredibly finicky with his food. For the past three weeks we usually can only get two cups in him. Yesterday, he threw-up bile in the morning. He has been stretching a lot over the past few months and when he burps, liquid will sometimes come up. We feed him 2 cups twice a day of Instinct Ultimate Protein Chicken with 2 tsp of enzyme Diane. We incubate for 30mins. He gets two B12 with intrinsic factor from Wonderlab in the morning and a probiotic at night. I have tried slippery elm, but I haven't seen an improvement. Toppers we have tried is Parmesan cheese, pieces of boiled chicken breast, chicken and beef broth. Do I need to up the amount of enzymes or reduce enzymes? His energy level is still very high. I just worry that he isn't getting all of the nutrients he needs. Plus, our vets are worthless, otherwise, I would take him in. I have learned everything through this foundation.

I appreciate any advice you can give me.
George was diagnosed with EPI in May of 2018. He eats 2 cups, twice a day of Purina Pro-Plan Lamb for Sensitive Skin and Stomach. He gets 1 tsp of Pantenex per meal and food is incubated for 30 mins. He also gets 2 B12 capsules with intrinsic factor from Wonderlabs and a probiotic.

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Jean » 30 Jan 2019, 16:23

Firstly welcome from me in UK

And thank you for those kind words about our website, its awesome !

so, the bile in the morning is an emty stomach, I would add a small meal of maybe scambled egg and mashed potato before bed enzymed

the stretching is likely uncomfortable belly, and that is likely SID / SIBO, which is an inbalance of bad bugs in the gut, that needs to be erradicated, the recommendation is Tylan, which is weight dosed, how heavy is George ?

when he burps, and brings up whatever, is it froth ? and white ?

sometimes our dogs just cannot tolerate chicken of any sort, including chicken fat, mine for one, unfortunately, the duck variety has chicken in it

the rabbit one looks ok

https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/or ... eal-rabbit

is this the one ?

if you can answer some of these it will give us an idea , and please print out and share with your vet anything on the website

finally keep a journal and record everything

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Btekrony
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Btekrony » 30 Jan 2019, 17:12

George weighs 73 lbs. We do have some tylosine. I guess I thought that was only given if they had runny yellow poo.

Often when he burps something up, he just swallows it back down so I can't see it. The few times that something has come all the way up, it looked clear and a little foamy.

He eats the protein kind. Here is the link: https://www.instinctpetfood.com/dogs/ul ... ken-recipe

I didn't realize I could feed him scrambled eggs and mashed potatoes :) How much and how much enzyme would I put on it?
George was diagnosed with EPI in May of 2018. He eats 2 cups, twice a day of Purina Pro-Plan Lamb for Sensitive Skin and Stomach. He gets 1 tsp of Pantenex per meal and food is incubated for 30 mins. He also gets 2 B12 capsules with intrinsic factor from Wonderlabs and a probiotic.

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Madelon
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Madelon » 30 Jan 2019, 18:09

Hi there. Your pup is adorable. You could be dealing with SID but you the not eating, stretching, throwing up could also be pancreatitis.
Have you talked to your vet about pancreatitis? I've asked one of our staff Jill to chime in as she's our pancreatitis expert. You could go ahead and try the tylan to see if it helps - they can have SID without having runny yellow poo.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Jean
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Jean » 31 Jan 2019, 04:34

hi

is there any rumbling from the tummy

what is weird is , they are fine with chicken for ages, and then all of a sudden as with Kara, no, however, I would give Tylan twice daily 12 hours apart for the 45 days recommended

and as per dosing chart, 1/4 teaspoon each time

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=166

see if that helps, slippery elm didnt work for us either

as for the scrambled egg its a light meal, and measure it out I suppose it would be 1/2 teaspoon enzyme I will confirm that with Diane, Kara at the start, couldnt go through the night without bile in the morning, vets told me it was also SIBO so, we used it for a long time, we also use Ranitadine 30 mins before food, as it coats the gut , Also sold as Zantac, worked for us,

but ask the vets about pancreatitis, as the symptoms echo it,
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Rioismygirl

Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Rioismygirl » 31 Jan 2019, 04:42

Hi there, this works an absolute treat for my girl.

3 x scrambled eggs (no added butter etc) just eggs. Along with half a packet of smash or equivalent (Asda own/Tesco own etc)

It’s her favourite meal of the day!! Give it a go

Good luck 👍🏻

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Btekrony
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Location: Omaha
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Btekrony » 31 Jan 2019, 05:38

What is Asda/Tesco?

Also, I posted this question in the facebook group and a couple of people said to try stopping the Probiotic. They never give their dogs this and it helped. And a couple of people also said they don't use grain free food for their picky eaters. What's your opinion on both of these?

His stomach isn't grumbling. I'll start the Tylan today. Thank you so much for your advice!
George was diagnosed with EPI in May of 2018. He eats 2 cups, twice a day of Purina Pro-Plan Lamb for Sensitive Skin and Stomach. He gets 1 tsp of Pantenex per meal and food is incubated for 30 mins. He also gets 2 B12 capsules with intrinsic factor from Wonderlabs and a probiotic.

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Btekrony
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Posts: 28
Location: Omaha
Country: United States
State: Nebraska

Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Btekrony » 31 Jan 2019, 08:26

Another concern I have is, the only way he will take tylosin is with peanut butter. However, since he isn't always eating his morning meal, this would mean he wouldn't have any enzymes in him to break up the peanut butter. Suggestions on that?
George was diagnosed with EPI in May of 2018. He eats 2 cups, twice a day of Purina Pro-Plan Lamb for Sensitive Skin and Stomach. He gets 1 tsp of Pantenex per meal and food is incubated for 30 mins. He also gets 2 B12 capsules with intrinsic factor from Wonderlabs and a probiotic.

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jilbert57
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Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by jilbert57 » 31 Jan 2019, 08:44

Good morning. I made a post yesterday but it has disappeaed. Do you still have the results from the Tli test? Did they do a Cpl test for pancreatitis at the same time? Like Madelon said the stretching after eating is more of a pointervfc to pancreatitis, or discomfort. The issue here is that with pancreatitis you want more carbs as they are easier on the pancreas as far as digestion, so the food would be not right for EPI. See if you can find the results. As far as eggs, Mickeys diet consisted of hard boiled eggs and rice or macaroni.
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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My name: olesia

Re: Won't eat and appears to have an upset tummy

Post by Olesia711 » 31 Jan 2019, 19:30

Hi!
So sorry George is not feeling well. You have been given some good suggestions already, i would just like to confirm a couple of points.

Yes, it is correct, try stopping the probiotics. Our EPI dogs are in a class all by themselves. Unfortunately, many of the highly recommended probiotics on the market today do not really work well with all of our dogs. This is problaby because the majority of probiotics have Lactobacillea strains in them and our EPI dogs have an over-representation of Lactobacillea so some of our dogs just don't do well on probotioics even though they are greatly lacking in other probiotic strains like Blautia. Image.

This does not mean that all our dog don't do well on probiotics, and they are worth trying, jsut that overall, our dogs tend to respond better to prebiotics vs. the current probiotics on the market at this time due to the composition. SO..... i agree.... i'd try stopping the probiotics.
Dr. S. Microbiome Fecal EPI chart100%-2.pdf
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#1 the most common cause to what George appears to be displaying is SID.... if you have Tylan on hand ....i would definitely try it... give it a few/+ days to see if you see improvement.......(white foam could be acid from SID... or it could be trigger more by acid imbalance due to faulty bile production... which our EPI dogs tend to have an issue with whether or not we see signs of or not)

#2... that white foam/ acid if not improved upon by treating SID..... then giving a tiny meal in-between meals, or at night usually helps, as does some of the acid reducing meds like Pepcid AC, or Omeprazole to name a few.... BUT... before just giving an acid reducer if the Tylan doesn't really help..... then be sure to talk to your vet 1st to make sure an acid reducer won't interfere with anything else George might be on, it should be given temporarily AND you want to make sure the vet explains to you what the right dose would be for George. But yes, this is something i would try (especially if you give the Tylan and that doesn't seem to make a difference)

#3.... should you try a pinch more enzymes??? YES... and do so for just a few days- -see if it helps or makes things worse.... sometimes the enzymes need to be upped and other times they need to be slightly reduced (i'd try 1/8 tsp more and see what happens over the course of 3 days and then i would try 1/8 tsp less to see if that would be more beneficial)

Ultimately if this is SID uncontrolled... you just need to figure out what the balance of things (food, enzymes and acid reducer if needed) need to be to get this under control. You can get SID in check via antibiotics BUT that does not always address the underlying problem/trigger..... usually what happens is that you have to find a more agreeable food for George ... unfortunately, that is easier said than done.................. hence why we try the other stuff first as a process of elimination
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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