Need some advice

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Linda53
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Need some advice

Post by Linda53 » 13 Feb 2019, 10:44

I was hoping to get some advice from all of you. Our corgi was tested at the end of December and her TLI was 3 and B12 was 178. She has been on enzymes and Pet Factors B12 for about 5 weeks now. Her poops have been very consistently good but she hasn't gained any weight at all. We are feeding her 4 times/day and the recommended 150% of what she should get at her normal weight of 25 lbs. (she weighs 15.4 lbs now).

Because she hasn't put on even an ounce of weight, I feel like I want her B12 tested to see how much it has come up, if it has, and if it hasn't come up, what we can do to get it higher. The cost for just a B12 lab is $125 and it is $360.00 for a whole gastro panel that would include rechecking her TLI. Do these prices sound reasonable? Should I just get the B12 checked or do the whole panel to get another check of her TLI as long as blood will be drawn? I read that if your dog's TLI is just over the 2.5 diagnostic limit, you should get it checked again 30 days later. Are there any other values on the complete gastro that might help to recheck at this point? If not, I would just have the B12 checked to keep the cost down.

I also wanted to ask if the IDEXX lab is as good as the Texas A & M for the gastro panel. My vet only has an account with IDEXX so her blood would be sent there. Her first gastro panel back at the end of Dec. was analyzed at Texas A & M.

Another thing I wanted to ask is does EPI cause their fur to shed more. I was brushing Pearl the other day and it seemed like so much fur was coming off of her. Of course she just might be in the time of year when she is shedding her undercoat but I wanted to ask all of you if you notice your EPI dog losing fur. She has had a handful of tee tee accidents in the house the past week, which is not normal for her. We took her to the vet the other day and had her tested for UTI. It came up negative and her urine has the right PH. I wondered if accidents could be a side effect of low B12. She does seem less energetic than she was about 4 weeks ago after she got a B12 shot. Before we got the pet factors capsules, I took her to get a B12 shot. It seemed to me like it really helped her but I went to the capsules as so many have good luck with them. Now I am wondering if she would do better with the shots. Having the B12 checked might shed some light on that....

She is constantly licking her paws, too. I don't know about any allergies but she also has never been tested for allergies. I asked the vet about checking for allergies and he didn't think it was necessary. Do dogs with EPI tend to have more allergy problems?

Thank you all so much!
Linda
Pearl (Pembroke Corgi) was born on Feb. 28 2017 and tested for EPI Jan. 2019 with results of TLI-3,
B12 -178, and Folate-12.9. She is on a raw diet of Small Batch Pet mixture of freezed dry and frozen raw turkey formula. She is getting 150% of what's suggested for her normal weight and I divide that into 4 meals each day. Each meal is mixed with 1/2 teas. of EnzymeDiane 6x and 1 meal/day mixed with 1/4 capsule of Wonderlabs Pet Factors B12.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 889
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Need some advice

Post by Olesia711 » 13 Feb 2019, 11:16

Hi Linda,

I think you are on the right track to want to check the B12 again..... it IS possible that for whatever reason, the oral B12 is simply not working with your pup. Usually the oral B12 pills work very well to the point of sometimes working better than the shots..... BUT .... that being said, on the flip side , over the years, there have been a few cases where the dog simply did not respond as expected to the ral B12.... so they went on the B12 shots and then the owners started seeing the expected recovery.

SO....... since she is on the oral pills... you need to wait 1 week after giving the last pill and then have her blood drawn for the B12 test.

Regarding re-doing the TLI test... even thou they do recommend re-testing... at a TLI value of 3..... i think i would wait at least 3 to 6 months before spending money on re-testing..... she is so close to being clinical EPI, that i don't think i would re-test this soon but rather give it more time to see if she does indeed become clinical EPI.

The excess peeing (we see this often) happens from them drinking more and peeing more once they are placed on enzymes. HOWEVER... this does tend to taper off in time....... i am guessing, since your pup was diagnosed in December.... and that your vet ruled out a UTI....(did they also check for possible diabetes?) other than these two possibilities..... my guess is that it is the enzymes and it should taper off soon.... when exactly i cannot say.

IDEXX is a good lab to test for EPI. It is the B12 testing that TAMU is the premier lab ... and of course TAMU has done so much research with EPI that they are obviously an excellent lab with the TLI testing too...... but i wouldn't worry about IDEXX running the TLI test for EPI.

AHhhhhhhhhh... the shedding..... many of our dogs shed a ton after they get on the enzymes and B12..... what we suspect is going on is that their bodies were denied sufficient nutrition for so long that their coats weren't the best. Then they get diagnosed, started on enzymes and B12 and then they shed the old crappy coat and a nice new healthy coat starts filling in. We see this a lot with the GSDs.
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Linda53
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Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Need some advice

Post by Linda53 » 13 Feb 2019, 12:02

Hi Olesia,

Thanks for your reply. I will make an appointment for the B12 to be checked. Just to make sure I understand correctly-I shouldn't give Pearl any more B12, wait 7 days, then have her blood drawn while fasting for 12-15 hours?

Linda
Pearl (Pembroke Corgi) was born on Feb. 28 2017 and tested for EPI Jan. 2019 with results of TLI-3,
B12 -178, and Folate-12.9. She is on a raw diet of Small Batch Pet mixture of freezed dry and frozen raw turkey formula. She is getting 150% of what's suggested for her normal weight and I divide that into 4 meals each day. Each meal is mixed with 1/2 teas. of EnzymeDiane 6x and 1 meal/day mixed with 1/4 capsule of Wonderlabs Pet Factors B12.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 504
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Need some advice

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Feb 2019, 12:54

Hi Linda,
Yes, give the last B12 pill then wait 7 days for the testing.
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 12 yrs young. TJ is a 3 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

Judith
Member
Posts: 24
Country: United States
State: Delaware

Re: Need some advice

Post by Judith » 13 Feb 2019, 20:15

Hi Linda

I have 2 corgis, one with EPI and one without, they are both blowing their undercoats. Nate's EPI has been stable for a few years so I'm guessing the shedding you are seeing is just normal corgi shedding.

Nate is one of the dogs Olesia mentioned that don't do well on oral B12, he gets a weekly shot of hydroxocobalamin.

What food are you feeding? In the beginning Nate needed about 1200 calories a day to gain weight.

Hope this helps
Nate and Raymi's mom
Nate 4 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
EPI, typical Addison's disease and epilepsy
TLI 2.0 June 2016
Chemeyes enzyme capsules
Hydroxocobalamin injections weekly
0.5mg prednisolone daily for Addison's
Percorten-V/Zycortal injection every 28 days for Addison's
Zonisamide 2x for epilepsy

Raymi 6 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Allergic to chicken and turkey

Eats Canine Caviar Venison kibble 3x

Nate and Raymi happily live in Bogotá, Colombia and Dover, Delaware.

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Linda53
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Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Need some advice

Post by Linda53 » 13 Feb 2019, 22:24

Hi Jill and Judith,

Thank you for your replies! Judith, how long did you try the oral B12 before you decided it wasn't working for Nate? Did you do a blood test to confirm it wasn't working? I am asking because I just noticed that Pearl really perked up after that first B12 shot we gave her 5 weeks ago before starting the oral B12 and since then she seems to be getting less perky. We are feeding her a raw diet and I suspect that might be part of the reason she isn't gaining weight. It seems a raw diet keeps a dog pretty trim so we recently started adding some kibble to her raw to see if that helps. We are feeding her 150% of what she should get at her normal weight but I am thinking about adding yet another meal/day! Thank you for reminding me about Corgis shedding their undercoats. I was wondering if that might be all it is. I am noticing little clumps of fur (very small clumps) on the floor in the past few days. We gave her a bath 2 days ago and it seems like the clumps started after the bath. Do you give Nate the B12 shots or do you take him to the vet? May I ask what they charge you for the shots? The one and only one we did cost $55.00.

Linda
Pearl (Pembroke Corgi) was born on Feb. 28 2017 and tested for EPI Jan. 2019 with results of TLI-3,
B12 -178, and Folate-12.9. She is on a raw diet of Small Batch Pet mixture of freezed dry and frozen raw turkey formula. She is getting 150% of what's suggested for her normal weight and I divide that into 4 meals each day. Each meal is mixed with 1/2 teas. of EnzymeDiane 6x and 1 meal/day mixed with 1/4 capsule of Wonderlabs Pet Factors B12.

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Linda53
Member
Posts: 7
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Need some advice

Post by Linda53 » 13 Feb 2019, 22:33

Olesia,

Should we go to a vet where Pearl's blood will be sent to TAMU for B12 testing? Our regular vet would use ODEXX for B12 testing and it would cost $125.00. But if I'm going to spend the money, I want to make sure I get accurate results! Also, you mentioned diabetes. Do EPI dogs tend to get diabetes or were you thinking that because she was having accidents that she might have diabetes? I can have them check that as well if it is warranted.

Thank you,
Linda
Pearl (Pembroke Corgi) was born on Feb. 28 2017 and tested for EPI Jan. 2019 with results of TLI-3,
B12 -178, and Folate-12.9. She is on a raw diet of Small Batch Pet mixture of freezed dry and frozen raw turkey formula. She is getting 150% of what's suggested for her normal weight and I divide that into 4 meals each day. Each meal is mixed with 1/2 teas. of EnzymeDiane 6x and 1 meal/day mixed with 1/4 capsule of Wonderlabs Pet Factors B12.

Judith
Member
Posts: 24
Country: United States
State: Delaware

Re: Need some advice

Post by Judith » 14 Feb 2019, 08:03

Hi Linda

It took about 2 weeks for my vet and I to notice the pills were not working. My vet calls in a script for a 30ml vial of hydroxocobalamin (made by Watson) to CVS. It costs about $40. I give the shots at home SQ. I can always tell when he needs a shot, he loses that corgi spunk

Normally you give 6 weeks of B12 injections before switching to pills and retest a week after the last injection. If your vet was willing to prescribe the B12 and you are comfortable giving shots I might try that before re-testing.

It is good you are adding kibble in. At one point Nate was eating 1.5 cups 3x. Now he eats 1/4 cup 2x and 1/2 cup for his third meal.

It sounds like Pearl is definitely blowing her undercoat... I can pluck Nate and Raymi when they are really shedding

Hoping Pearl starts to feel better soon
Nate and Raymi's mom
Nate 4 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
EPI, typical Addison's disease and epilepsy
TLI 2.0 June 2016
Chemeyes enzyme capsules
Hydroxocobalamin injections weekly
0.5mg prednisolone daily for Addison's
Percorten-V/Zycortal injection every 28 days for Addison's
Zonisamide 2x for epilepsy

Raymi 6 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Allergic to chicken and turkey

Eats Canine Caviar Venison kibble 3x

Nate and Raymi happily live in Bogotá, Colombia and Dover, Delaware.

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Jean
Staff
Posts: 562
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Need some advice

Post by Jean » 14 Feb 2019, 13:24

i have asked Olesia for her feedback, we are in UK so I dont know, sorry

probably TAMU

jx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules


Jeanx

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Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 889
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Need some advice

Post by Olesia711 » 14 Feb 2019, 13:52

IDEXX should be perfectly fine for B12..... and in the future if you want to re-do the TLI they do that too.

I just personally prefer TAMU .... but there is nothing wrong with IDEXX they do many of our members testing.

OR.... if you really want TAMU to do it.... jsut talk to your vet - -ask him if it would be feasible for him to have a contract with TAMU for testing.... not sure if they have to pay or what.... but it wouldn't hurt to ask if you want to.

As far as i know there are only 3 labs in the USA that will do the TLI test: TAMU, IDEXX and there is another one that i can't remember off hand who they are, but are not often used from what i can tell............
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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