EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Feb 2019, 10:23

PI at 12 years?

I am re-posting this post here on the main forum, as it inadvertently was posted on the announcement page and no one was able to respond to help out............... :(



Post by McGee » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Hello,
Our dachshund McGee is 12 now. Last June he was diagnosed with chronic dry eye and put on cyclosporine drops, artificial tears and both oral and topical antibiotics. After a few weeks he began having bloody diarrhea; a noted adverse reaction in 3% of dogs on cyclosporine. We stopped the drugs for about six weeks then slowly resumed in the autumn. He had a couple of eye infections and received more oral antibiotic but no more blood in his stool. McGee has always been a fussy eater, always ate grass any chance he got and, unlike his brother, needed encouragement to eat.
About 2 months ago, while on another round of antibiotics, McGee began to have larger stools. Somewhat lighter, definitely 'inflated'. We didn't worry..yet. There were good poos in between. A few weeks ago they became more yellow and wet. Not quite diarrhea but soft cow pies. I considered the antibiotics(Clavamox) but he'd been off for over a month so I slipped some yogurt in his food. No improvement, of course. Now our fussy eater was hungry all the time. One night I took him out and he voraciously ate his brother's frozen poo like it was a Snickers bar. Suddenly I realized his yellow poos were actually clear signs of malabsorption. A search led us to canine EPI. McGee had every sign listed. We called our vet but she didn't know what EPI was. We asked for the blood test but she thought we should do a series of other tests first..a price of $500 before considering the definitive Tli test. We lost confidence and resumed our research. That was 10 days ago. McGee is raw fed; ground chuck, raw and cooked vegetables,cooked eggs and fish. We sought a source for raw pancreas. We bought frozen veal pancreas as a last resort but will pick up our first order of fresh lamb pancreas tomorrow. The veal pancreas was added to McGee's food starting a week ago. We cut out all treats and Veg to start. We added 20g to each meal 3x a day. After the second day we rejoiced over the first perfect poo..but his morning poos were still leaning in the wrong direction. Not quite yellow, but large and soft. We had good results then today it's returned to multiple splats of poo, a little blood with the last. He won't eat the pancreas now. We're lost. Our vet won't do the EPI test unless we do the other tests first. We will pick up the lamb pancreas tomorrow anyway and I ordered Slippery Elm and B12 from Wonderlabs. Does anyone know a vet familiar with EPI in southeast Wisconsin? We're willing to go to Madison,too. Thanks for your time and patience.
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Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Feb 2019, 10:36

First let me apologize profusely for no one responding and for it taking 5 days before you received any response. Your post was in the announcement section and that is why no one responded.

First.... it is common sense to run the TLI test (least expensive and not invasive) compared to running a bunch of other tests first, especially when the symptoms are EPI symptoms (even though the same symptoms can be so many other gastro conditions also.)

Our motto here is "your dog, your dollar" if you tell the vet you want a TLI test run, they provide veterinarian services to YOU..... and should oblige. If they don't oblige, they are not serving you or your dog well and it is time to seek another vet or vet opinion.

We have a vet page with some vet recommendations.... but nothing in Wisconsin.
But quite honestly, over the years, what we have observed is that the very best EPI vets are not so much vets that know anything about EPI... but rather find a vet (thru recommendations from neighbors, family & friends) who are willing to LISTEN to what you have to say, are willing to WORK WITH YOU and try things, who are willing to have DISCUSSIONS with you and explain why something might work or not work, and most of all, those that are excited to have an EPI case and take it upon themselves to do their own RESEARCH coupled with your research as to how to treat your dog.

And to answer your question if 12 year old dogs can develop EPI..... sadly, yes..................

Hope this helps and so so sorry about the delay in getting back to you with some answers.
Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Doing great 12+ years later! Once stable at 3+ months, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each cup of food, but as she aged- -had to go back 1 tsp enzymes per cup of food. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil / fish oil daily .... until she developed Diabetes and she now cannot tolerate higher fat foods. Currently feed an 80% home-made diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, 1/3 of a raw egg, fat free cottage cheese, fish oil+vitamins and bone meal with 20% Annamaet Lean & Grain Free kibble. This combo has regulated her Diabetes (takes Vetsulin) and EPI and is very well managed. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. This is when we discovered that she also developed Diabetes & Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the generosity of folks on Epi4dogs! Izzy continues to wake up every day full of joy. I am not a vet. All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal experiences, observations, information gleaned from EPI researchers & pet parents alike, and EPI research. Please share with your vet everything we suggest.

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Jean » 15 Feb 2019, 13:19

welcome from the UK

a dog can "get" EPI at any age, and I agree you employ the vets, so they in turn should listen and comply, I had to demand a test for my Kara, the main vet was on holiday it was ,a young vet who had an ego issue, soon went

anyway this is a wake up call to check everything on the forum, nothing else to add for now

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by McGee » 15 Feb 2019, 13:55

Dear Izzy & Olesia, Thank you kindly for your response. You are correct, 'our dog ,our dollar' is a good motto. Since our first post we continue to move forward. We ordered the Schebo Elastase 1 Quick test and used it this morning. It clearly indicated EPI. We picked up fresh lamb pancreas Monday. We also bought a couple pounds of ground lamb. McGee has been eating raw for many years. He loves vegetables especially. Since reading your feeding guidelines, we've held all veg except cooked squash. We also cut out treats. We had mixed results with the frozen veal pancreas we started him out with. We started 2/2 after buying 'frozen sweetbreads' from a reliable local butcher. McGee started out enthusiadtically, we got a couple good pops then he wouldn't eat it anymore. It did have a distinct smell. The lamb pancreas has no odor. Since starting the fresh lamb pancreas Monday McGee has mostly improved poo. We had a couple bouts of morning diarrhea with some bleeding at the end. I suspected SID all along because of his repeated oral antibiotics since June. As a retired oncology/bone marrow transplant nurse, I have a few strong opinions about wiping out normal flora. Hence, I always assumed SID until I found you.
I was giving him sublingual liquid B12 until the Wonderlabs potion arrived. I also started Slippery Elm last night. Today we have no diarrhea..the most perfect poo..and only one(which we subjected to the Schebo test)Not the usual 4 or 5 piles progressively worse. Now..to the probiotic? Any suggestions?
We agree with you as to the Vet. We like our Vet; she really cares. But we need to determine if she can work with us. It may be she is constrained by the owners business model. If not, I do believe we can work with her. And, it would only benefit others with this disease.
Thank you again and any suggestions/experience will be most gratefully accepted. Our boys are 12 now and we want their senior years to be gentle and kind.
Antoinette in Wisconsin USA owned by a feisty pair of smooth red haired dachshunds; Jeter & McGee. The boys are age 12 (littermates). Fed raw with a large variety of vegetables & fruit. McGee now fed with fresh lamb pancreas, Wonderlabs Slippery Elm, kefir and Wonderlabs B12.

McGee
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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by McGee » 15 Feb 2019, 14:12

Hello Jean. Thank you for your input and this amazing site.
Antoinette in Wisconsin USA owned by a feisty pair of smooth red haired dachshunds; Jeter & McGee. The boys are age 12 (littermates). Fed raw with a large variety of vegetables & fruit. McGee now fed with fresh lamb pancreas, Wonderlabs Slippery Elm, kefir and Wonderlabs B12.

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Kodis Mom » 15 Feb 2019, 17:18

Hello and welcome .

Just wanted to say hello and remind you that you can print anything and share with your vet. You can refer them to this site also. Also keep a journal or log, then you will know what works and doesn't. Alot of vets are not well versed in EPI.. but if they are willing to learn with you, they are a keeper !!

Darlene
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B. 8/19/2010 Diagnosed at 11 months.
Kodi is now on Natures Logic turkey and/or pork kibble, 2 cups with 2 teaspoons of enzymes, 1/8 teaspoon of ground coriander, 1/16 teaspoon of cinnamon and ground fennel seed (for tummy upsets) twice a day, plus one one B12 capsule from Wonderlabs. She has been very stable and on occasion needs a dose ofTylan.
She is our second GSD with EPI. It was not so scary this time ! And thank goodness for epi4dogs.com !

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by jilbert57 » 15 Feb 2019, 17:23

Hi, just wanted to welcome you and your pup to the forum.
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Jean
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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Jean » 16 Feb 2019, 08:41

by the way, that young vet became an EPI master, ,
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Re: EPI at 12 yrs old??? (post by McGee)

Post by Madelon » 16 Feb 2019, 12:01

Hi and welcome to our EPI family. Glad you got the Schebo test. We do recommend following up with a fasted blood test as the Schebo test is only accurate at ruling OUT EPI. So, if it indicates EPI the only way to know for certain is with the fasted blood test. If your current vet will not do the test, then I would definitely find another vet as there are many other conditions that mimic the symptoms of EPI and if it's something other than EPI you don't want that to go undiagnosed.

We don't recommend using probiotics in the beginning until your dog is stable - good poops and weight gain for a few months. Unfortunately probiotics are not a "one size fits all" thing. Recent research indicates especially with EPI dogs, what is most beneficial is a prebiotic such as slippery elm bark powder. So if you're giving SE, I would not recommend using a probiotic.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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