Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by jilbert57 » 20 Apr 2019, 15:16

So when you say she can't tolerate meat with fat content of 6% or higher, does the poop get worse? Maybe it is a pancreatitis issue. Does she ever act like she has a stomach ache?
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 20 Apr 2019, 15:18

Hi Barb!
Thanks for checking in on Molly's process! The new vet is a holistic vet and so she suggested a more conservative approach to continue the enzymes and add in 2 glandular Standard Process products one of which is specifically targets Vit B12 in their system. We are now on day 3 of the 2 glandular products and she's doing great. Vet said her stool sample looked good, no bad bugs nor was there any blood. She hasn't had any loose stools nor blood I can see in her stools since the vet appointment. I'm cautiously optimistic.
I'll update as we go forward.
Hope you have a nice Easter weekend!
Thanks,
Ann
Barb wrote: 16 Apr 2019, 19:33 What a sweetheart Molly is! Please let us know when you get in to see the vet and what information they give you. Hang in there. It is always hard when our pups are not feeling well.

Barb
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 20 Apr 2019, 15:28

I don't know, how do dogs act when they have a stomach ache? Heavy panting? She has had intermittent very foul smelling loose feces when I gave her meat with fat over 6%...especially with beef. Usually she'd have heavy panting during the day of the meal and then any where from 10pm-4am she had to go out for a brisk walk going maybe a 1/2 block then have the loose stool bm. She wouldn't go in our yard, she'd pace in the yard and come in and whine for me to talk her for a longer distance walk, then have the loose feces bowel movement. So I switched her to low fat meat 2 years ago yak, elk, venison, turkey breast meat, sardines, salmon, flounder. The fecal transplants made a big difference but she didn't hold constant from them either.

jilbert57 wrote: 20 Apr 2019, 15:16 So when you say she can't tolerate meat with fat content of 6% or higher, does the poop get worse? Maybe it is a pancreatitis issue. Does she ever act like she has a stomach ache?
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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jilbert57
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State: Washington

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by jilbert57 » 20 Apr 2019, 18:27

Well it could be stretching ( feet down butt up in play look position, mopey could be panting due to stress but not sure, depressed, lack of appetite.
Does your dog usually pant when stressed?
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Posts: 23
Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 21 Apr 2019, 10:00

When she's stressed she'll whine. She has a great appetite and is energetic. The panting cycles (If/when she pants) are typically around noon -3pm and only with a heavier meat/higher fat meal. I'll have to do some research to see if I can find what stage of the digestion cycle that time frame would be.
jilbert57 wrote: 20 Apr 2019, 18:27 Well it could be stretching ( feet down butt up in play look position, mopey could be panting due to stress but not sure, depressed, lack of appetite.
Does your dog usually pant when stressed?
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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jilbert57
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by jilbert57 » 21 Apr 2019, 10:31

Doesn't sound like pancreatitis really. Did the new vet do blood work?
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Patsy
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Patsy » 21 Apr 2019, 18:49

Tibetans are beauties. , we had an owner in here from the Netherlands who showed them, till one got epi.
To answer the bloody stool question... it’s usually a bug, but if caught early you may not need antibiotics. My ‘normal’ terrier is an avid bird and badger poo eater,and had bloody stool last week. I kept him on scrambled egg or microwaved white fish, mixed with boiled sweet potato, for three days, and he’s fine now.
I hope you get a diagnosis soon. Do let us know! Has she been losing weight?
Epi B12 treatment requires injection or tablets with Intrinsic Factor added. This is a natural enzyme produced the pancreas in dogs, needed for B12 absorption. Do you know what is in the supplements you have got, because it would be useful to us to know if it actually stated if the glandular content was pancreas containing intrinsic factor.
Most people stick to a simple protocol after diagnosis, then any problems are easily identified and tweaked, just one thing at a time. Using pre and probiotics are often left until the worst problems are addressed. They can actually complicate the digestive process which you are keen to analyse, causing diarrhoea.
Faecal transplants are gaining popularity for gut bacteria, but as you know, can’t compensate for a necrotised pancreas.
Best wishes to you both
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Posts: 23
Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 23 Apr 2019, 14:14

Hi Jill,
What makes you think that? I'm open to input! It's been challenging!! I have been chasing these problems for 3-4 yrs now! I went the fecal transplant route suspecting that balancing her gut biomatte would address the issues. It didn't take care of all of them. I thought her symptoms especially the inability to digest fat, off and on pudding like feces and eating other dogs feces were strong indicators of Pancreatitis, especially the fact that the enzymes have addressed her loose stools. I did do the home ScheBo pancreatitis quick test. She tested positive for it. I followed the test directions to the "T", so I don't think it was a false test.

No the new vet didn't do any blood testing yet. She advised taking a more holistic approach and started Molly on two Standard Process supplements for Vit B12 etc. So far with the enzymes from Enzyme Diane her stools have been good except for the 3 days of blood. Which I do suspect the sharpish spinal bones in the canned salmon triggered as her intestines are probably still inflamed from the on and off diarrhea?!
Thanks!
Ann



jilbert57 wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 10:31 Doesn't sound like pancreatitis really. Did the new vet do blood work?
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Posts: 23
Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 23 Apr 2019, 14:36

Hello Patsy,
Thanks for the reply! As for the SP glandulars the bottle doesn't say. I'll have to get back with you on that after I try to do a web search to see if I can find the specific ingredients in the products....bottle only have #'s on them not the typical SP bottles with ingredients etc.


I've read about the benefits/need for Tylan and Vit B12 injections.
Molly is keeping her weight steady, great appetite and has good energy. I wonder if the bleeding was caused by the spiked all be it soft spinal bones in the wild caught canned Salmon I was feeding her the day the bleeding started.

Molly just finished a round of strong antibiotics after getting her teeth cleaned and a couple teeth removed. The new vet I took her to felt because of the recent strong round of antibiotic doses she had and the recent fecal transplant capsules I was giving her that it was unlikely she has a bad bug in her system...her fecal sample didn't show any bad bugs/tested fine.

I've been giving Molly probiotics because of the oral surgery I couldn't leave her gut bio-mater unattended, (just finished 30 days of fecal capsules)slipper elm powder and small amounts of psylium powder which does create a pre-biotic environment, plus it helps to firm up the stool...again giving her small amounts.

I'm going to feed her full fat turkey this week with the enzymes from Enzyme Diane and see if her gut can hold with the 10% fat in the turkey. If not then I will go back to the new vet and have a full EPI blood test protocol done.

All the best,
Ann



Patsy wrote: 21 Apr 2019, 18:49 Tibetans are beauties. , we had an owner in here from the Netherlands who showed them, till one got epi.
To answer the bloody stool question... it’s usually a bug, but if caught early you may not need antibiotics. My ‘normal’ terrier is an avid bird and badger poo eater,and had bloody stool last week. I kept him on scrambled egg or microwaved white fish, mixed with boiled sweet potato, for three days, and he’s fine now.
I hope you get a diagnosis soon. Do let us know! Has she been losing weight?
Epi B12 treatment requires injection or tablets with Intrinsic Factor added. This is a natural enzyme produced the pancreas in dogs, needed for B12 absorption. Do you know what is in the supplements you have got, because it would be useful to us to know if it actually stated if the glandular content was pancreas containing intrinsic factor.
Most people stick to a simple protocol after diagnosis, then any problems are easily identified and tweaked, just one thing at a time. Using pre and probiotics are often left until the worst problems are addressed. They can actually complicate the digestive process which you are keen to analyse, causing diarrhoea.
Faecal transplants are gaining popularity for gut bacteria, but as you know, can’t compensate for a necrotised pancreas.
Best wishes to you both
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2088
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by jilbert57 » 23 Apr 2019, 15:05

The fact that there is a good appetite and your pup is full of energy!

Dogs can have an issue and not present in the text book way. The only way to rule out pancreatitis is a blood test, the cPl test that measures the amount of lipase in the blood SPECIFIC to the pancreas. Just having the lipase checked in a blood draw is not accurate for pancreatitis as other organs emit lipase too.

Just like the Schebo test is a good indicator of EPI even followed to a T but it is only an indicator yay or nay. You would need to have the fasting blood test Tli as it is the gold standard to really know if it is EPI you are treating or another medical condition that might mimic it.

Holistic vets are an important part of the medical options we have available. Follow her way just realize if you truly want to know if you are treating symptoms or not at some point you will need blood results.

Good luck and let us know how things go.
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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