Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

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Madelon
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Madelon » 28 Apr 2019, 11:12

I think the price of the test depends on your vet - I think I paid around $250, which seems to be the average.

If she's only panting with higher fat food then the panting may be from the stress of the higher fat food on her system - especially if she has pancreatitis.

As for the supplements you're using, if your dog has definitive EPI diagnosed through the fasted blood test, these will not work. EPI dogs require replacement enzymes. If it's pancreatitis you're dealing with, I'm not sure if these supplements will help or not - I suspect it may depend on how bad the pancreatitis is and how much the pancreas is still functioning normally. I believe Jill with Mickey, who had pancreatitis, used the replacement enzymes (EnzymeDiane's Pancreatin 6x).
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Olesia711
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Apr 2019, 12:08

What a cutie Molly is... but so sorry to hear that she is having these issues.

Regarding the cost of the tests, unfortunately, they USED to be around $125 (TLI) but those days are pretty much gone. Depending on where you live in the country, the cost will vary, but it appears that the price nowadays is anywhere between $250 and $350. Someone even quoted me a price of $400, but that was in Calif.

In short, if possible, you really should have Molly properly tested. But the fact that you paid very close attention to what appears to set her off and what appears to help has given you EXCELLENT clues on what to test for :) Good job Molly's mom! I wish more folks were as observant and keep good records (very helpful!)

The glandular supplement that you are giving Molly... well, Madelon's post summed it up perfectly..... If this is EPI it really is not helping, and ditto for Pancreatitis... depending on the degree of the condition. There are some excellent ingredients in this product, but on the flip side, there are ingredients in this product that simply is adverse to a dog dealing with EPI and there are other ingredients in the product that are adverse ingredients to a dog dealing with Pancreatitis. IN the end, it is often cheaper to spend the money to have the proper test done vs. spending money trying one thing after another trying to guess what might work and what is going on.

My next step would be to test for either EPI or Pancreatitis. The Schebo test is ONLY an indication test... IMHO...I would do the TLI test for EPI first, especially with the stinky stool, but then again, If your dog is doing the prayer stance, maybe i would do the PLI test first.
Unfortunately, in either case (EPI or chronic pancreatitis) Molly would very likely respond positively to the enzymes....sometimes even dogs with IBD will temporarily respond positively to enzymes. However(just as an example).. if Molly is having an acute pancreatitis attack you do not want to give enzymes at that time- - i am simply mentioning these other examples of why i like to stress the importance of running the proper tests, when possible............but we totally understand the expense. We all can only do the best that we can when we can.

Regarding the bright red blood that you observed...how it came/went and based on what you posted and what your vet said (tested for bacterial and there was none).... i strongly suspect your dog had colitis . As Patsy mentioned, this will sometimes clear up on it's own if not too bad, but at other times, an antibiotic is needed. And with colitis... it can be a LOT of bright red blood...(my dog Rico had Colitis once where bright red blood was shooting from his rectum as if it was from a hose! )..The most common cause though is not necessarily bacterial (although it can happen from parasites) but rather Colitis can often be stress-related for whatever reason.... the typical anti for colitis is metronidazole.... i personally had tylan on hand, and althou not the #1 choice for colitis, it will still work (which it did in my case) although not as well as the metro.

Also, Psyllium can really help firm up the stools... and i know you said you are using very little... but Molly is also a very little dog... Psyllium can be very harsh.... so i just want to reiterate to really, really REALLY please be careful. SLippery Elm is a much more gentle way to go vs. Psyllium for the same end result. My thought is to use only one or the other, not both (if i read your post correctly)... or if not too loose, you can always try a tsp of canned pumpkin.

Hope this info helps a little and that you figure out what is really going on with little Molly soon.

Please keep us posted.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 28 Apr 2019, 18:25

Darn my area would be higher priced! Ugh. Oh well I've scheduled her EPI fasting blood drawl for Wednesday morning. So hopefully the tests will give some definition and guidelines for treating her!

She's been on the enzymes 6x From Enzyme Diane for over a month and they are making a difference. I'm testing the glandulars, they are in addition too the enzymes. The vet says they take a longer period of time to effect the organs. There are quite a few studies showing glandular given as well the actual organ (i.e. bovine thyroid) of another animal can and do positively affect dysfunctional organs in animals and humans.
Thanks!
Madelon wrote: 28 Apr 2019, 11:12 I think the price of the test depends on your vet - I think I paid around $250, which seems to be the average.

If she's only panting with higher fat food then the panting may be from the stress of the higher fat food on her system - especially if she has pancreatitis.

As for the supplements you're using, if your dog has definitive EPI diagnosed through the fasted blood test, these will not work. EPI dogs require replacement enzymes. If it's pancreatitis you're dealing with, I'm not sure if these supplements will help or not - I suspect it may depend on how bad the pancreatitis is and how much the pancreas is still functioning normally. I believe Jill with Mickey, who had pancreatitis, used the replacement enzymes (EnzymeDiane's Pancreatin 6x).
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 28 Apr 2019, 19:00

Thanks for the cost perspective! Seems I area is on the higher end. I've scheduled her EPI fasting blood draw for Wedensday morning. Hope to have some definitive answers soon! It's been a long haul 3-4 yrs trying to address this holistically and keep her gut biom in good shape!

Yes, I have been giving the psylium as food for the gut flora because I had a analysis done on her feces biome and she needed more fiber in order to support the gut bacteria that she was missing. I have been giving her slippery elm which is a prebiotic and have been increasing it to 1/2 tsp. I can stop giving her the psylium and just give the slippery elm a try and see how she responds.

Good to know about possible Colitis. She hasn't had any visible blood since. Hope that is stable now!



Olesia711 wrote: 28 Apr 2019, 12:08 What a cutie Molly is... but so sorry to hear that she is having these issues.

Regarding the cost of the tests, unfortunately, they USED to be around $125 (TLI) but those days are pretty much gone. Depending on where you live in the country, the cost will vary, but it appears that the price nowadays is anywhere between $250 and $350. Someone even quoted me a price of $400, but that was in Calif.

In short, if possible, you really should have Molly properly tested. But the fact that you paid very close attention to what appears to set her off and what appears to help has given you EXCELLENT clues on what to test for :) Good job Molly's mom! I wish more folks were as observant and keep good records (very helpful!)

The glandular supplement that you are giving Molly... well, Madelon's post summed it up perfectly..... If this is EPI it really is not helping, and ditto for Pancreatitis... depending on the degree of the condition. There are some excellent ingredients in this product, but on the flip side, there are ingredients in this product that simply is adverse to a dog dealing with EPI and there are other ingredients in the product that are adverse ingredients to a dog dealing with Pancreatitis. IN the end, it is often cheaper to spend the money to have the proper test done vs. spending money trying one thing after another trying to guess what might work and what is going on.

My next step would be to test for either EPI or Pancreatitis. The Schebo test is ONLY an indication test... IMHO...I would do the TLI test for EPI first, especially with the stinky stool, but then again, If your dog is doing the prayer stance, maybe i would do the PLI test first.
Unfortunately, in either case (EPI or chronic pancreatitis) Molly would very likely respond positively to the enzymes....sometimes even dogs with IBD will temporarily respond positively to enzymes. However(just as an example).. if Molly is having an acute pancreatitis attack you do not want to give enzymes at that time- - i am simply mentioning these other examples of why i like to stress the importance of running the proper tests, when possible............but we totally understand the expense. We all can only do the best that we can when we can.

Regarding the bright red blood that you observed...how it came/went and based on what you posted and what your vet said (tested for bacterial and there was none).... i strongly suspect your dog had colitis . As Patsy mentioned, this will sometimes clear up on it's own if not too bad, but at other times, an antibiotic is needed. And with colitis... it can be a LOT of bright red blood...(my dog Rico had Colitis once where bright red blood was shooting from his rectum as if it was from a hose! )..The most common cause though is not necessarily bacterial (although it can happen from parasites) but rather Colitis can often be stress-related for whatever reason.... the typical anti for colitis is metronidazole.... i personally had tylan on hand, and althou not the #1 choice for colitis, it will still work (which it did in my case) although not as well as the metro.

Also, Psyllium can really help firm up the stools... and i know you said you are using very little... but Molly is also a very little dog... Psyllium can be very harsh.... so i just want to reiterate to really, really REALLY please be careful. SLippery Elm is a much more gentle way to go vs. Psyllium for the same end result. My thought is to use only one or the other, not both (if i read your post correctly)... or if not too loose, you can always try a tsp of canned pumpkin.

Hope this info helps a little and that you figure out what is really going on with little Molly soon.

Please keep us posted.
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

carolejon58
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Posts: 4
Location: Wales
Country: United Kingdom - Wales
Pet name: Winter

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by carolejon58 » 30 Apr 2019, 04:48

Hi, I live in UK Winter my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel was dx 4years ago she is now 10yrs old. In the beginning she shed her bowel lining and I was petrified after help from this group she was given antibiotics Oxetetrycyclene and has been really good ever since until this week when she shed again she is now going on antibiotics again. It is frightening when you see blood but it can be helped all the best with your little girl.
Winter. Cavalier King Charles Spaniel aged 9yrs diagnosed three yrs ago. 25/06/15
CTLI TLI 1.01 Folate 12.8 Cobalamin 150
Chemeyes Enzyme Powder
Chemeyes B12 with Intrinsic factor.
Food. Forthglade Complete Wet Food Grain Free
Trinfac
Coconut oil 1tsp daily
Prebiotic Protexin Bio
Weight. Start 5.57kgs now 7.80kgs
Oxetetrycyclene when needed
Carole (UK)

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 30 Apr 2019, 09:58

carolejon58 wrote: 30 Apr 2019, 04:48
Hi Carole,
Thank you for sharing. It's very encouraging to hear your journey and to know that there are options for helping our 4 legged family members! Wishing you and Winter all the best!

Hi, I live in UK Winter my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel was dx 4years ago she is now 10yrs old. In the beginning she shed her bowel lining and I was petrified after help from this group she was given antibiotics Oxetetrycyclene and has been really good ever since until this week when she shed again she is now going on antibiotics again. It is frightening when you see blood but it can be helped all the best with your little girl.
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
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Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Madelon » 05 May 2019, 14:19

Slippery elm contains a type of soluble fiber known as mucilage. Mucilage traps and absorbs water, forming a gel-like substance that can coat mucous membranes, providing short-term relief of pain and inflammation The high calcium content may also act as a mild antacid. So while it is a prebiotic it also has soluble fiber.

Here is the dosing we recommend for using Slippery Elm - be sure to mix with 1-2 tablespoons of water and then put on top of the food:
1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs,
¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs,
½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs,
3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs,
1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs.

As a reference I give my 100lb GSD 1/2tsp SE am and pm every day.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Mom of a Tibetan
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Posts: 23
Country: United States
State: Colorado
Pet name: Molly

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by Mom of a Tibetan » 05 May 2019, 23:57

Yes, ok good to know the dosing. I've been giving SE in her food for a few months, a 1/4-1/2 tsp, so I was on the right dosing, whew! LOL
Hopefully I will get her EPI blood test results back tomorrow. So I'll know more soon!
Thanks!


Madelon wrote: 05 May 2019, 14:19 Slippery elm contains a type of soluble fiber known as mucilage. Mucilage traps and absorbs water, forming a gel-like substance that can coat mucous membranes, providing short-term relief of pain and inflammation The high calcium content may also act as a mild antacid. So while it is a prebiotic it also has soluble fiber.

Here is the dosing we recommend for using Slippery Elm - be sure to mix with 1-2 tablespoons of water and then put on top of the food:
1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs,
¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs,
½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs,
3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs,
1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs.

As a reference I give my 100lb GSD 1/2tsp SE am and pm every day.
Ann here mom of Molly a 5.5yr old Tibetan Terrier. A friend suggested Molly might have EPI. Approx a month ago I did the home test she tested positive. I have a vet appointment this week to do more in depth tests. For approx 30 days I have been giving her Enzyme Diane's 6x enzymes....her daily meal supplement regime is 1/2 tsp enzymes I let them sit approx 20-30 mins in her morning meal of raw meat or eggs and veggies and a calcium/mineral/vitamin supplement. I have been giving her 1/4 tsp slippery elm, probiotics and 1/4-1/2 tsp psylium powder.

sareenamoreno342
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Pet name: Max
My name: Sareena Moreno

Re: Please advise! Newly diagnosed EPI Found Bloody Stool!

Post by sareenamoreno342 » 24 Dec 2023, 20:33

Hi Ann,

I'm glad to hear Molly's stools have been looking better and there's been no more signs of blood recently. It sounds like the combination of enzymes, glandulars, and other supplements you have her on is helping. That's great you found a holistic vet open to a more gradual approach.

Since she responded well to the enzymes initially, even though the Schebo test can have inaccuracies, EPI is still quite possible for Molly. I came across an article that might be helpful as you continue to monitor her symptoms: https://petskeera.com/dog-poop-looks-like-raw-meat/ It covers different reasons why a dog's poop may look abnormal, like undigested food, and some of those causes tie into EPI. So if you notice her stools looking off again, that article has info on potential causes and when veterinary care is needed.

For now it seems like you have a good handle on supporting her digestion and health! But with the history of signs like eating poop and issues with higher fat foods, I would recommend still pursuing the EPI testing at some point to get definitive answers. Please keep us posted on how Molly is doing! This group has lots of collective experience to help out if those symptoms flare up again. Wishing you both all the best!

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