Dog Breath

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 114
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Dog Breath

Post by Tuckaboo. » 19 Jul 2019, 06:06

I'm new, and I know this has been researched & is probably an old subject. But, since being on enzymes for a couple of months, my dog's breath smells like dirty tennis shoes. Since this coincides with normal-ish poo, I am happy to change his nickname to Mr. Stinky Breath, and I love it. Reading some of your stories, my heart breaks for you & I realize I have been very lucky with my mild experience. Tucker was skinny, and he ate toilet paper, eyeglasses, billing statements, kong toys, and all the poo he could get his paws on. If I called him in after he left a yellow mess ouside, and before he had eaten it, he would whine and paw at the door, because he wanted to get back to it before I did. My vet said yes, he was slim, his 8-10 a day poops were a little abnormal, and wouldn't it be nice to be able to overeat all the time & never gain an ounce? He was 4 1/2, and hadn't gained or lost weight since he was 6 months old. Then I saw one of those sad rescue stories about a German Shepherd that couldn't gain weight because it had EPI. Out of curiosity, and since Tucker is half shepherd, I googled it & found that he had 8 of 10 symptoms. In 20 years, my vet had never seen a case, but she got on board right away. I won't bore you with our journey, but several months later, after much trial and error, I think we have got it almost under control---for now! I have lots to learn, and I do have some questions for you veterans, but I'll just include one right now---Why no treats in between meals? I understand that they will be of no value, if not taken with enzymes, but does that matter, or is there another reason for this rule? I'm thinking that when I eat an Oreo, I'm not expecting anything good to come of it, but I do it anyway! I will appreciate any input, and so will Tucker, who loves him some 'cookies'.
Tucker is a shepherd mix, and has not had a blood test for EPI. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and progress was shown. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4t/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 t/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 8 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family...no more grumpies with his much smaller brother & sisters, who do not have EPI.

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Miss Maddie Moo
Staff
Posts: 119
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 19 Jul 2019, 09:08

The breath um....that can be a couple of things sometimes it can indicate SIBO is present ...but it can also be the enzymes, but SIBO can present when we give our dogs treats without enzymes that is why we dont recommend it but every dog is different some people can give treats and have no side effects others like my gal it would upset her ...if you look on the tabs there are suggestion on how to make treats with enzymes this may help you also some people give treats near an enzyme d meal but to me thats not what treats are for ! I am glads you found the answer to your dogs problems even though it took time to get it...as long as you address the 4 cornerstones of EPI ,enzymes food b12 and antibtiocs if needed then they go on to lead a normal life.Please ask as many questions as you like we have all been in your shoes.
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
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Jean
Staff
Posts: 740
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara
My name: Jean

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Jean » 19 Jul 2019, 09:45

Hi Pam

I am glad I was able to sort out your problems with the forum, and your user name, any others , let me know

ok ALL foods that enter the mouth must be enymed, with EPI they cannot digest ANYTHING without them

an Oreo , although fabulous has chocolate on it , and is not good for dogs, which I am sure you know already

normal pancreas starts to secrete digestion enzymes straight away An EPI dogs does not

the stinky breath could be an upset in the gut, it is possible that charcoal could help

something like this maybe



but this is UK Amazon site

please give us an update on your daily routine how you came to get diagnosed and was it by faster blood test
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 114
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Tuckaboo. » 19 Jul 2019, 13:37

Hi Jean! Sorry I made my post so confusing. I would never give any of my dogs an Oreo, but I'd sure eat them myself. We call dog treats 'cookies', which are either Fruitables or Newman's Own chicken flavored hearts, both from Amazon. Tucker seems to be fine with the occasional treat, but since reading two responses, I realize that may be because he's still tapering off tylan, and once it's done he would flare up again. Phooey. I love giving my good boy his treats. Guess we'll see,
Tucker is a shepherd mix, and has not had a blood test for EPI. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and progress was shown. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4t/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 t/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 8 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family...no more grumpies with his much smaller brother & sisters, who do not have EPI.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 114
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Tuckaboo. » 19 Jul 2019, 14:10

I have four dogs---all rescues, two little fluffies, Tucker my EPI shepherd/lab, and a sheltie mix I found playing on the side of a busy highway. Took him to the shelter, nobody claimed him, so I have been 'fostering' him for three years. It can be hard to make Tucker stick to a regiment, with so much activity at our house, including three dogs who have no digestive problems. Here's Tucker's story---- He was a poop eater from 6 months on, when he seemed about full grown, but he only ate the little girls' poo, which was gross enough. Last year, when he started eating his own, I told the vet we had to do something, so she had me start giving him B12. Besides that nasty habit, he ate bizarre things, like rolls of toilet paper. He also pooed 8-12 times a day, enormous, gold wet piles that I could barely pick up. As I said before, I happened upon an article about a rescue dog with EPI, looked into it & called my vet. With so many dogs, we use a mobile vet, who is wonderful, but she had never had a case of EPI. She started him on some herbs for his liver, just as a trial, and had me continue the B12. With no improvement, she sent me to her support clinic, where an old time vet saw us for FREE because he knew how financially draining this could become. I wanted an EPI test, and he said fine, but maybe we should try a few other things first, and BTW that test costs $440.00. I said tell me your ideas! So he put Tucker on Sulfasalizine & probiotics, continuing the herbs & vitamins (he has great respect for my wholistic vet & it was nice to see this kind of cooperation and kindness). There was terrible diarrhea, and it turned out to be caused by the probiotics, because after switching to another kind, he had the big D again. Tucker started getting better, until the antibiotics ran out. And we were back to soft serve yellow stuff. So, this awesome doctor spent over 45 minutes on the phone with me, and helped me put together a plan, apologizing that the enzymes were so expensive. Being a vet, he would surely make me do the expensive test, I thought, but he told me we'd only do that if I wanted to. Tucker was put on tylan & pancreved, tapering the tylan after a month, and then again unless the symptoms came back. That is where we are now. Tucker's ribs don't show, his waist is filling out, and he is much more playful than before. He gets 1 teaspoon of pancreved & 1/8 teaspoon tylan mixed with water & added to about 2 1/2 cups of kibble & a few bites of chicken, twice a day. The vet has had free phone conversations with me 3 times, and has never asked for a penny. Now, this may be different from what others are doing, but he stresses to me that we are aiming for Good, not Perfect, and that has helped me keep my sanity. Tucker's poo happens 4-5 times a day, and te color and texture are very much like my oter dogs'.After the pancreved is gone, I am going to try Diane's, and we'll see how he does without tylan, though I understand he can be put back on if his symptoms return.
Tucker is a shepherd mix, and has not had a blood test for EPI. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and progress was shown. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4t/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 t/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 8 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family...no more grumpies with his much smaller brother & sisters, who do not have EPI.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 366
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Barb » 19 Jul 2019, 16:10

Hello and welcome. Glad you and Tucker are finding solutions. What a lucky boy he is!

I do recommend Enzyme Diane's enzymes. She provides an excellent product for very reasonable prices. Many of us have been using her enzymes for years.

One thing I noticed in your post is that you are mixing 2 and 1/2 cups of kibble with 1 teaspoon of enzymes. We usually recommend starting with 1 teaspoon per cup of food and then adjusting from there. Tucker seems to be responding to the amount you are giving, but you might want to increase the enzymes a bit and see what happens.....his poos may improve even more.

Another thing that saved our sanity at the beginning was keeping a daily log/journal of everything we gave our pup, the amounts, and the resulting poos. This showed us what was working and what wasn't and it gave us information when we made changes.

I know that costs vary in different states, but $440 sounds like a lot for the cTLI test. Maybe others can chime in here.

Thank you for "fostering" Tucker. It sounds like he landed in exactly the right place when he found you. Let us know how he is doing and ask any other questions you may have.

Barb

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 114
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Tuckaboo. » 19 Jul 2019, 17:05

I was wondering the same thing. There are tests you can buy, but as I understand it, Texas A & M is where the bloodwork is done, and $440 is the price. Will the test be valid while he is taking enzymes? On the actual jar of Pancreved, it says 3/4-1 teaspoon per meal. Nothing about food measurement, which I know is different from what others are saying.
Tucker is a shepherd mix, and has not had a blood test for EPI. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and progress was shown. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4t/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 t/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 8 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family...no more grumpies with his much smaller brother & sisters, who do not have EPI.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 114
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Tuckaboo. » 19 Jul 2019, 17:46

BARB, I just increased his enzymes by about 1/4 teaspoon, and will go from there. Thanks so much for your input! JEAN, you, too. Thanks for letting me be here---not so lonely, this way.
Tucker is a shepherd mix, and has not had a blood test for EPI. In May 2019 we started on sulfasalazine to eliminate IBS as diagnosis. Symptoms returned at end of course, so started on Tylan alone...no luck, so added enzymes, and progress was shown. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4t/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2/day, and Tylan 1/2 t/day. No more coprophagia, he has gained 8 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family...no more grumpies with his much smaller brother & sisters, who do not have EPI.

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Madelon
President
Posts: 649
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Madelon » 19 Jul 2019, 23:50

Hi and welcome to our EPI family. Sorry I'm late to post as I was away on vacation. If your dog has not been tested for EPI through the fasted blood test, it is okay to treat as if EPI for a short while, but we recommend getting the blood test as EPI can mimic many other conditions where if untreated can have dire consequences. In that regard, $440 is A LOT! The most expensive i've heard of is my own at $225. If you increase the enzymes, be sure to increase per cup of food. So if you increase 1/8tsp - increase an 1/8tsp per cup of food not per meal.

EnzymeDiane is where most of the U.S. members get their enzymes as she has quality enzymes at about 1/3 of the cost of the enzymes you get from the vet.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and everything that comes out so you know what works and what doesn't and be sure to only make one change at a time so you know if that change helped or not.

EPI is scary at first, but you are not alone - we are all here to help guide you along the way.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Barb
Staff
Posts: 366
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Dog Breath

Post by Barb » 20 Jul 2019, 08:41

We have all been where you are when our dogs were first diagnosed, which is why Olesia created this wonderful Forum. Hang in there. It seems like a lot to manage, but it gets easier as your pup improves and as you get more familiar with the treatment. You are doing a great job already.

Barb

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