Rocky's back...

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Olesia711 » 24 Sep 2018, 15:03

So sorry about Rocky... Yes... sometimes when they get off-track like this, we try with upping the enzymes (in your case Creon) but if things don't straighten out within a reasonable amount of time..... then that is when you usually need to then address SID that also got out of whack. You can try one of 2 things..... with try a prebiotic like SLippery Elm powder..... and that might be just enough to get the ever present SID in these EPI dogs back under control.... or..... talk to your vet, about starting just a short course of antibiotic (Tylan)..... for maybe 10-14 days.... since this all just happened and things were fine....you most likely do not need to do the full 30-45 day course of Tylan.............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Olesia711 » 24 Sep 2018, 18:46

Hmmmm..... thinking further about this........just as a remote possibility...... how long has Rocky been on Cobalequin? Cobalequin is made from the Cyanocobalamin version of B12.... and "most" dogs respond well to it..... HOWEVER. ..... (i swear, there is always a "however" with these dogs) sometimes some of our dogs just don't respond as expected to the high dose of Cyanocobalamin shots or pills.... and for some reason... this problem if/when it happens just happens to happen to the small dogs. Why, i have no idea .......

Just in case Rocky is not rebounding after you try the other std recommendations for what you are experiencing............. talk to you vet about re-testing his B12 levels.....(Low B12 will also cause loose stools like what you are describing in some EPI dogs)..........just in case Rocky is one of those rare cases that is not responding to Cyanocobalamin.... if so.... (or if you just want to try this as another option without re-testing the B12 and if all else fails )........ have your vet either try hydroxycobalamin shots (hydrosycobalamin serum is a human product your vet can order from any pharmacy) or you can order Wonderlabs "Pet Factor B12" or "Trinfac B12" (online) both are made with 1000mcg Methylcobalamin version of B12, 800mcg of Folate and 40 mg of Intrinsic Factor..... These other B12 options succeed when Cyanocobalmin B12 products fail................... wanted to share in case this turns out to be the underlying problem.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

curtin5@msn.com
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Re: Rocky's back...

Post by curtin5@msn.com » 02 Oct 2018, 13:55

Rocky has been on Cobalequin since March 2018. I am going to get him back in to the vet and have his B12 checked and discuss SID. Will see if we should try Slippery Elm or Tylan. Thanks.
One other thing-he seems to be shedding a lot right now, it is fall in New Jersey, but still warm. I am little surprised at the amount. Can this be related?
Rocky, an awesome Pug and the apple of my mom's eye! Approximately 11-13 years old (as of 2018). Lowest weight 15lbs, currently weighs 16.8lbs.
Developed an insulinoma (tumor on pancreas that causes hypoglycemia) in July/Aug 2016, removed in December 2016. Diagnosed with EPI in early 2017.
Had been controlled on Nutro limited Ingredient diet, grain free and Creon (1/2 capsule of 12,000 units). Takes Cobalequin B12 (started March 2018), and Prilosec once a day.
Now (7/19/18) possible PLE (protein losing enteropathy)diagnosis, albumen level is 1.8. Started on hydrolyzed protein diet (Purina HA Chicken), albumen up to 2.4, but my poops are a mess. Starting to have accidents again...

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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My name: olesia

Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Olesia711 » 03 Oct 2018, 12:44

That is a very, very good plan.... get his B12 re-tested just to make sure the oral B12 is working for him.!

Ahh... the shedding..... we often hear this and we suspect that it is because the dog is now absorbing the needed nutrients that the poor body was denied before the proper EPI diagnosis and treatment..... typically they shed the old crappy coat and then a nice new luxurious coat will fill in :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
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Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Madelon » 03 Oct 2018, 20:37

I agree - I would definitely get the B12 tested. I can't really comment on the shedding as my boy seems to shed 24/7 all year long - I think most GSD owners refer to them as German Shedders :lol:
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

curtin5@msn.com
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Re: Rocky's back...Hydrolyzed Food Diet?

Post by curtin5@msn.com » 12 Nov 2018, 21:18

Hi again...so I talked to my vet about Rocky and we did change a few things. First we opted to not test the B12 and he gave him a shot of B12 to see if that helped (that did not seem to help, my vet was trying to save me the cost of bloodwork-and I think he doesn't like to try to get blood from Rocky-he is so difficult, lol). It did not help. We also tried treating for SID with Tylan for a few weeks and that also didn't work. So we thought after looking back at notes that this all started around the time of the new Hydrolyzed protein diet...we decided to change him back (over a week or so) to his previous diet, Nutro Limited Ingredient Grain-Free to see if his poops improved. HIS POOPS IMPROVED! So it seems it is diet at this point for him. Unfortunately, I think we are going to need to try another Hydrolyzed protein food because of his low albumin level. I am trying to do some research on hydrolyzed food and I know there is Purina HP (which Rocky was on), Royal Canine, and Hills. I also found Blue Buffalo Natural Veterinary Diet HF Hydrolyzed for Food Intolerance Grain-Free Dry Dog Food. Does anyone know anything about this food? It almost sounds too good to be true to me-Hydrolyzed food and grain-free?? This is the list of ingredients (to be completely honest-I am so confused by this)
Ingredients
Salmon Hydrolysate, Pea Starch, Potatoes, Peas, Pea Protein, Canola Oil (source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Potato Starch, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavor, Flaxseed, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Fish Oil (source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Pumpkin, Dried Kelp, Dried Chicory Root, Salt, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, L-Threonine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), L-Carnitine, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Dried Yeast, Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Aspergillus niger fermentation extract, Dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Sodium Selenite, Oil of Rosemary.

Caloric Content
3,529 kcal/kg, 368 kcal/cup

Any help/thoughts would be so appreciated!! Thanks!!
Rocky, an awesome Pug and the apple of my mom's eye! Approximately 11-13 years old (as of 2018). Lowest weight 15lbs, currently weighs 16.8lbs.
Developed an insulinoma (tumor on pancreas that causes hypoglycemia) in July/Aug 2016, removed in December 2016. Diagnosed with EPI in early 2017.
Had been controlled on Nutro limited Ingredient diet, grain free and Creon (1/2 capsule of 12,000 units). Takes Cobalequin B12 (started March 2018), and Prilosec once a day.
Now (7/19/18) possible PLE (protein losing enteropathy)diagnosis, albumen level is 1.8. Started on hydrolyzed protein diet (Purina HA Chicken), albumen up to 2.4, but my poops are a mess. Starting to have accidents again...

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Nov 2018, 12:30

Hi... i am so sorry that no one responded to your request about this.

I'll share what i know.... i saw the new Blue Hydrolyzed being advertised all over various recent Vet publications.... BUT.... what i found out is that they use a lot of weird stuff in this product like beaks, feathers, and such (YUCK!)...... HOWEVER..... i was reading where someone was complaining about these fillers and a vet came online and said that it really is not unhealthy for a dog to consume these products. I have no idea if this is true or not..... (good for the dog) ....

All i know is in the wild, a dog will eat (from a carcass) the organs, first, then other meat., and then yes they do consume fur, nails, etc......

So.....maybe next best step is to research the product's ingredients????
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Nov 2018, 23:32

Also... just as a general observation........ Purina HP is another hydrolyzed food that appears to be well tolerated by some of our EPI dogs, as is Royal Canine "Ultamino"....... Unfortunately... with these EPI dogs, just because one EPi dog does well on a particular food is no guarantee that the next EPI dog will also do well on it...

THe best advice when changing foods that we can give is take notes.. and take notice of similar ingredients in products AND when there is a different ingredient from one product to the next...... hopefully what you will notice is what items in the contents tend to either help or hinder your pup. THen when switching foods, best thing is to just try things... BUT.... buy the smallest bag possible and try for 3-5 days, or even a week.... closely observe the dog's reaction and of course the poos. ANd then decide if that particular brand of food appears to be helping or not...........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Rocky's back...

Post by Jean » 16 Nov 2018, 03:38

hi

can I also apologise for not responding

you have my permission to contact me personally if you have an issue, and cannot get help

derek.smith49@sky.com

A food with beaks , now that would put ME off, never mind the dog, my vet told me once that food with chicken is mainly scrappings off the floor

I have nothing much to add, so keep in touch

J
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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