Allergies to enzymes

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Aug 2019, 11:29

Oh my goodness.... i am so so SO sorry to hear that you have such a severe reaction to the enzymes.... YIKES! and i too would be petrified of having my child try feeding the dog with the enzymes if he too showed any type of allergic reaction. *sigh*.....

I have a couple of thoughts.... my first suggestion is to re-read (and even read again!) Patsy explanation about CREON... she covered ALL the issues and itty bitty details you need to know about giving CREON to an EPI dog (Thank you Patsy, excellent post!!!!!!!!!)

My next suggestion... is to "try" Jean's suggestion regarding raw pancreas (Excellent suggestion Jean!).... as the powder enzymed little particles are easily inhaled.... maybe whole, fresh raw pancreas might work.... the only reason why i am wondering about this is because my mom had a pork allergy....she could handle the raw meat... but..... she could not cook it... she once had such a highly allergic reaction to the fumes of cooking pork that she actually coded in the doctor's office.... (we brought her to the dr because her entire body became covered in welts within a few minutes of cooking the pork)

Next.... what you are describing... the yellow, the bile... the loose stools.... this leads me to believe that the enzymes ARE working... but that your dog is dealing with uncontrolled SID. We see this happen often. WHere people think the enzymes are not working when in reality what they are seeing are SID symptoms.

How much does your dog weigh and how much and how often are you giving the Tylan???

Also, i think you are probably correct ......you might have to make a food change....BUT... don't do this just yet..... ONE THING AT A TIME.... my thought is too clear up the SID and then do a process of elimination (with food) to find out if this is what triggered things.

Regarding the CREON..... as Patsy mentioned... trial and error.... so you may or may not have happened on the right CREON technique for your pup.... but please know, that CREON does and will eventually work......but because of your poo description, i strongly suspect the main issue here is uncontrolled SID or some sort of gastro/gut imbalance/infection.... get that resolved first and then you will be able to focus the enzyme technique with CREON.....

Hope this helps and if you can let me know weight and Tylan dosing regimen.... AND how long has your pup been on Tylan....this time around.............. that would be really helpful.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Paulag
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Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lyra
My name: Paula

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Paulag » 12 Aug 2019, 12:00

Hello, yes I have been reading and reading Patsy’s link. I will start by increasing the time between giving the medication and feeding her. Today her poo was semi formed but still grainy looking puddle colour.
Also, I have tried and tried to get raw pancreas! It’s either ridiculously overpriced , 170$ for 20 1/2pd pieces which will last two weeks. I can’t afford this. I have called every butcher I can find close to me. They will not sell it to me.
So....moving forward. Lyra was stable until I started the Creon two weeks ago. So she immediately went back to peeing out her butt within a day. After three days on Creon she had two decent poos so I thought great we are on out way. Then, she had wet poo and pee over night in the basement! Crazy!
So I upped the Creon to two 10000. Per feeding and started slippery elm to see if it helps. A little better but one poo good and one poo runny. So now I am waiting 10 minutes between Creon and feeding her.
As for Tylan. She did a course of Tylan in Feb when she was first diagnosed. Since that I haven’t needed it.
Until now....today we have a vet appointment but unfortunately I didn’t fast her this am. So am seeing what the vet suggests.
Lyra is 55.4 pds. 58 being ideal for her size so not bad

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
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Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Jean » 12 Aug 2019, 12:15

we got raw pancreas from a slaughter house, do you have one anywhere ?

the bile is from an empty stomach usually

we tried, and were successful with a tablet of Ranitidine/Zantac 30 mins before food , it coats their gut, it is 75 mg

Patsy is great with this type of thing, her Husband is a doctor, but she is well up on it too

so it would seem that Creon is your only credible way forward

Tylan is great so long as you dont rub your eyes after handling it, it stings !

are you supplementing b12 ?
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Paulag
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Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lyra
My name: Paula

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Paulag » 12 Aug 2019, 12:24

The nearest slaughter house is an hour and 30 minute drive but I am still working on this option. Yes she has daily b12 with intrinsic factor. I started with injections and now switched to tablets. Also she has slippery elm every meal and omegas once a day.
Tylan is by prescription only so I will get blood work today to see where to go from there.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Aug 2019, 12:47

Hi Paula,

I sounds like you are getting close to the right CREON technique with your pup.... who by the way is ADORABLE! Such a cutie in your profile pic!

Anyway... Tylan is a very forgiving drug, it is a Macrolide antibiotic and does NOT kill all the bacteria and does not have any adverse effect like Metronidazole/Flagyl can... (except if a dog has an allergy to it, they will have loose stools)... also.... Tylan more readily addressing small gut issues whereas Metro more readily addresses large gut issues/bacteria....

SO.... with your pup... he should be given 1/4 tsp Tylan twice a day (with breakfast and dinner) for 45 days..........

Jean's suggestion of an acid reducer is also an excellent idea.... the best one to use since all our EPI dogs have messed up bile acid functioning... is Omeprazole.... however.... i still am a firm believer of trying stuff "one at a time" so i personally would ask the vet for a course of Tylan... and ask him how much Omeprazole your dog would require.... but just start the Tylan first without the Omeprazole.... to see if that gets everything under control.... if not.... then add the Omeprazole. Our goal with controlling the bile acid situation in our EPI dogs is not that we can really fix it, but treat if needed... if not out of control....then don't treat. Ditto with SID...........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Paulag
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Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lyra
My name: Paula

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Paulag » 12 Aug 2019, 13:05

Thank you all for the advise and I will do my best to get her stable. Now I have a little more understanding. I was worried to death about getting her stable.

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Patsy
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Patsy » 12 Aug 2019, 13:56

Just re food and bile..I think most GSD owners feed a total of six cups a day. This amount is best spread in at least three meals, so that could be breakfast, straight after work, and before bedtime., for people who are working.
Bile in the morning comes from an empty stomach, so you need a full tummy overnight.
The only other reason for bile that I have experienced is with kidney problems, but I wouldn’t be suspecting that.
Can you give your brand of Creon as a complete capsule according to the instructions in the box?

It’s a lot to take in first , be patient, it’s not magic, and as Olesia said, try one scheme art a time. If you chop and change you can’t tell what is overreacting.
Keep a diary of what and how you feed and dose your pet. Note results of poo colour and consistency, or photos., a.so the other issues.
We all understand, look after yourself.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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Paulag
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Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lyra
My name: Paula

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Paulag » 12 Aug 2019, 14:09

Hi, I feed 5 cups a day. Twice two and once one. She’s a small GSD with her ideal weight being around 57/60pds.
The Creon I use is called Cotazym. Feeding instructions is take complete capsule before eating. That’s about all it says.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1244
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Olesia711 » 12 Aug 2019, 15:34

Even thou the packaging says to give the capsules whole, you can break them open and spread on the food and then serve immediately..... HOWEVER.... considering your severe allergy..... i am not so sure that it would be safe for you to try this particular method............

Oh.. and for your peace of mind..... the Cotazym product you are using is one of the proper enzyme products that our dogs can use :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Paulag
Member
Posts: 43
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lyra
My name: Paula

Re: Allergies to enzymes

Post by Paulag » 12 Aug 2019, 16:03

Omg that’s so reassuring! I stepped it up to three feedings a day. Two cups per and two 10000 capsules ten minutes before serving. I am using slippery elm so praying to god it works. I am looking into getting tylosin powder but we are doing bloods to make sure

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