New member introduction

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New member introduction

Post by Barb » 14 Sep 2019, 15:53

Well, it is good you caught it early and can start treatment right away.

Yay, Diane's enzymes......we love her!

Barb

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jordieboy
Member
Posts: 9
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Rosie
My name: Jennifer

Re: New member introduction

Post by jordieboy » 14 Sep 2019, 21:23

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words and encouragement. Rosie has been on enzymes for five days now, and her poop is much more normal (not normal-normal, but at least normal-ish). Her belly noises and gas have subsided, and she hasn't done the ouchy-belly stretch in several days. Plus, she's back to demanding tummy rubs!

She goes in for a second B-12 shot on Monday, so I'll be able to get her weight again. It will be useful to know if she's eating enough. Right now, she's eating 3 cans plus 1 cup (kibbled) of Royal Canin intestinal Low Fat, broken into three meals per day. It seems like that should be enough calories (about 1300ish) to give her extra to gain weight, but the scale will tell us more. She used to eat about 3 cups of Nulo Salmon and Pea (about 1000 calories) per day before she got sick, but that quantity was highly variable, since she has never been a food motivated dog and has always just stopped eating when she felt done. Right now, she eats absolutely her whole meal and licks out the bowl.

I'm so glad this forum exists, and I'm grateful for the support. Thank you!

nala_indie
Member
Posts: 7
Country: India
Pet name: NALA
My name: Seshank

Re: New member introduction

Post by nala_indie » 15 Sep 2019, 11:22

Hello Everyone, My Name is Seshank, from INDIA.
Exactly about a year back we took in NALA, from the streets. She came upto our gate with her tail wagging, we couldn't stop ourselves from adopting her. My entire family feel in love with her instantly, she's a bundle of cuteness & naughtiness. We just celebrated her 1st birthday on September 11th, that was the day we found her.
Sadly Since About 2 months back her poop has been very weird, yellowish & greasy, after several trips to different Vets, about a months time, not knowing whats wrong with her, we finally came to a conclusion that she has EPI.
She has been put on CREON for about a month now. Poop is very inconsistent, most of the time its yellow, consistency varies. But never hard and brown upto now. She has put down about 3-4 kilos, her ribs and pelvic bones are visible, breaks our heart to see her like this.
I have just come across this website after immense researching on the web. and learnt about TLI testing, B12 deficiency. I shall get the tests done at the earliest.
I wish to find some valuable guidance here, and bring back my baby to her best self.
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jordieboy
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Posts: 9
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Rosie
My name: Jennifer

Re: New member introduction

Post by jordieboy » 15 Sep 2019, 15:07

Welcome! Nala is beautiful! I'm so glad she found you, and that you figured out what is wrong with her. I'm wondering if she needs a higher Creon dose to help her digest more of her food? It seems from my reading here that a fair number of veterinarians either prescribe enzymes per "meal" instead of per measurement of food, or there is a communication difficulty between the veterinarian and the owner that causes confusion. (I'm sure someone with more experience will weigh in here.) I know that when Rosie's poop turned yellow and mushy, our other dog found it delicious because it was essentially just liquified food and not digested. Yuck, but useful information to us! Perhaps if you post Nala's picture and story in a new thread asking about Creon dosages, someone else who uses it could help you get her sorted out. From what I've read here, she could also need an antibiotic to help her with bacterial overgrowth in her small intestine. She's a very lucky girl!

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member introduction

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Sep 2019, 15:13

Hi Seshank and welcome to you and Nala and THANK YOU for rescuing her from the streets. She sure is a real cutie and we will help you and your vet as best we can to get her better.

The first thing is, if you can, try to get her tested for EPI. This page is where we have some info on TLI testing in India:
https://epi4dogs.com/tli-testing-in-india-2/

Next, we are very glad your vet started Nala on CREON, but CREON is tricky to work with until you find the right technique and dose for each individual dog, and they can all differ from one another.

SO....what i would like to address is the CREON ...
1. how much are you giving with each meal?
2. what is the technique you are using to give Nala the CREON?.(Whole capsule with meal or are you breaking it open and sprinkling it on the food and then giving her the meal?)
3. What strength of the CREON are you giving Nala?

Next, what type of food are you giving Nala?
Are you feeding her approximately 150% of what a dog her size would normally require?
With EPI or many of the other gastro health issues, if possible it is better to feed smaller meals BUT feed more meals throughout the day/night. Many of us start with 3 to 4 meals a day and once the dog is stable and has gained back it's weight THEN we reduce the meal frequency back down to 2 meals a day.

Next... what you are describing is mostly likely not only the EPI (if this is EPI) but probably SID (small intestinal dysbiosis)... formerly called SIBO. SID can happen with EPI, IBD, IBS and many other gastro health conditions. Has the vet given Nala any antibiotics? What appears to work best is Tylan (Tylosin soluble powder/100 grams) . Sometimes the enzymes ARE working but it "looks" like it is not because SID feces looks the same as EPI feces....This antibiotic (Tylosn) is designed for chickens, pigs and honey bees but is used on dogs and most of the time works MUCH better than Flagyl/Metronidazole given for SID. Here is some information on the SID Antibiotic page (please have your vet read)
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ and some sources of Tylosin in India:

If you are in India..…. you have access to 2 different products of Tylosin.. BUT you will need to talk to your pharmacist or vet to re-calculate the dosage since both of these other Tylosin products ARE NOT the same potency as the USA Elanco’s “Tylan Powder”… hence why you will need your vet or pharmacist to re-calculate the dosage equivalent to the USA Elanco’s “Tylan Powder”.

1. TYLOMIX http://www.venkys.com/products/ahp-anim ... s/tylomix/

2. Virbac; TROX SOLUBLE Powder Composition Tylosin Tartrate IP

(if the link below does not work… please copy it and paste in your browser and then it should work)

https://www.virbac.in/home/products/by- ... wder.html


With EPI dogs, many do not see dramatic improvement until AFTER the dog starts receiving B12 supplementation. Over 80% of all EPI dogs have low or low normal B12 and need to be supplemented. Please read the B12 section... https://epi4dogs.com/b12-protocol/
If you decide to give oral B12, it will need to be a very high dose. Many of our dogs (GSDs, Labs, Etc) get approx 1000mcg B12 daily or 3 times a week, depending on their B12 depletion.

Looking forward to hearing back from you and hopefully some of this information is helpful!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

nala_indie
Member
Posts: 7
Country: India
Pet name: NALA
My name: Seshank

Re: New member introduction

Post by nala_indie » 17 Sep 2019, 14:15

jordieboy wrote: 15 Sep 2019, 15:07 Welcome! Nala is beautiful! I'm so glad she found you, and that you figured out what is wrong with her. I'm wondering if she needs a higher Creon dose to help her digest more of her food? It seems from my reading here that a fair number of veterinarians either prescribe enzymes per "meal" instead of per measurement of food, or there is a communication difficulty between the veterinarian and the owner that causes confusion. (I'm sure someone with more experience will weigh in here.) I know that when Rosie's poop turned yellow and mushy, our other dog found it delicious because it was essentially just liquified food and not digested. Yuck, but useful information to us! Perhaps if you post Nala's picture and story in a new thread asking about Creon dosages, someone else who uses it could help you get her sorted out. From what I've read here, she could also need an antibiotic to help her with bacterial overgrowth in her small intestine. She's a very lucky girl!
Thank you so much. Right now she is on CREON 25000, after trying 10k for a week, we increased the dosage as her poop was still yellow and mushy.
And as per the guidance of our vet, we are giving her CREON per each meal.

nala_indie
Member
Posts: 7
Country: India
Pet name: NALA
My name: Seshank

Re: New member introduction

Post by nala_indie » 17 Sep 2019, 14:40

Olesia711 wrote: 15 Sep 2019, 15:13 Hi Seshank and welcome to you and Nala and THANK YOU for rescuing her from the streets. She sure is a real cutie and we will help you and your vet as best we can to get her better.

The first thing is, if you can, try to get her tested for EPI. This page is where we have some info on TLI testing in India:
https://epi4dogs.com/tli-testing-in-india-2/

Next, we are very glad your vet started Nala on CREON, but CREON is tricky to work with until you find the right technique and dose for each individual dog, and they can all differ from one another.

SO....what i would like to address is the CREON ...
1. how much are you giving with each meal?
2. what is the technique you are using to give Nala the CREON?.(Whole capsule with meal or are you breaking it open and sprinkling it on the food and then giving her the meal?)
3. What strength of the CREON are you giving Nala?

Next, what type of food are you giving Nala?
Are you feeding her approximately 150% of what a dog her size would normally require?
With EPI or many of the other gastro health issues, if possible it is better to feed smaller meals BUT feed more meals throughout the day/night. Many of us start with 3 to 4 meals a day and once the dog is stable and has gained back it's weight THEN we reduce the meal frequency back down to 2 meals a day.

Next... what you are describing is mostly likely not only the EPI (if this is EPI) but probably SID (small intestinal dysbiosis)... formerly called SIBO. SID can happen with EPI, IBD, IBS and many other gastro health conditions. Has the vet given Nala any antibiotics? What appears to work best is Tylan (Tylosin soluble powder/100 grams) . Sometimes the enzymes ARE working but it "looks" like it is not because SID feces looks the same as EPI feces....This antibiotic (Tylosn) is designed for chickens, pigs and honey bees but is used on dogs and most of the time works MUCH better than Flagyl/Metronidazole given for SID. Here is some information on the SID Antibiotic page (please have your vet read)
https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/ and some sources of Tylosin in India:

If you are in India..…. you have access to 2 different products of Tylosin.. BUT you will need to talk to your pharmacist or vet to re-calculate the dosage since both of these other Tylosin products ARE NOT the same potency as the USA Elanco’s “Tylan Powder”… hence why you will need your vet or pharmacist to re-calculate the dosage equivalent to the USA Elanco’s “Tylan Powder”.

1. TYLOMIX http://www.venkys.com/products/ahp-anim ... s/tylomix/

2. Virbac; TROX SOLUBLE Powder Composition Tylosin Tartrate IP

(if the link below does not work… please copy it and paste in your browser and then it should work)

https://www.virbac.in/home/products/by- ... wder.html


With EPI dogs, many do not see dramatic improvement until AFTER the dog starts receiving B12 supplementation. Over 80% of all EPI dogs have low or low normal B12 and need to be supplemented. Please read the B12 section... https://epi4dogs.com/b12-protocol/
If you decide to give oral B12, it will need to be a very high dose. Many of our dogs (GSDs, Labs, Etc) get approx 1000mcg B12 daily or 3 times a week, depending on their B12 depletion.

Looking forward to hearing back from you and hopefully some of this information is helpful!
Thank you Olesia, for the kind words.
We are planning to get the TLI test done the next weekend as the Hospital that does this test, is in a different state from ours, around 350 miles away. And i am travelling this weekend on work.

So she's on CREON 25000 right now, we break open the capsule and sprinkle it on the food, set aside for 15 mins and give it to her. Are we doing it right?

She's been having Royal Canin dry puppy food since the beginning, but after she's fallen ill we've changed her diet to home cooked food.
  • Breakfast - 2 whole eggs pan fried with a handfull of cooked rice
    Lunch - Boiled Chicken with Rice (100 grams Chicken+2 cups cooked white rice)
    Dinner - same as lunch
She's totally off kibble for now. No treats or rawhide bones.
Please suggest if i need to change her diet.

We haven't put her on any antibiotics upto now, today she has taken her first Tylan powder solution mixed in her food, she didn't seem to like it, she left a little bit of her food, shall notice the progress.

We haven't given her any B12 supplementation yet. I had a word with my vet today and and she'll probably get her B12 shot tomorrow.

Thank you for the response again, it instills a good feeling knowing i have help around.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member introduction

Post by Olesia711 » 17 Sep 2019, 16:34

thank you SO much for answering my questions!

Now i try to help you out as best i can.

WOW!!.. you are traveling 350 miles to have the TLI test done?. You are one very lovely and caring doggie earth angel!!!

Your vet is 100% correct in advising you to give CREON with every meal! And do not give and treats/snacks in between (or at least not at this time). What you might want to try is sprinkling the CREON on the food and serving immediately. The CREON is enteric coated so there is no need to incubate. If this doesn't help.... another technique is to give the CREON as a whole capsule tucked in some food or something and given about 5 minute prior to a meal.

I suspect the awful poo that you are seeing might be due more in part to SID (that is present with EPI, IBD, IBS, etc) than 100% due to EPI. So... i also suspect that once you give enough Tylan... you might see the poo quality improve.

How much does she weigh????? and how much Tylan powder are you giving per meal???????
This will be very important in helping her get better.

Also, since she doesn't like the taste of Tylan (many dogs don't)... take the amount of Tylan powder you need to give her, make a little paper funnel and pour that needed amount of Tylan powder into an empty gel cap. When this is done, wash your hands with soap and water before touching anything because Tylan powder is air-borne and dogs will taste it on everything. SOOOoooo once your hands are clean, make a pouch with some sort of soft food (i use cream cheese, not sure if you have something similar there.. or you can use mashed cooked and peeled yams, or something kind of soft and mushy that you have that dogs can safely eat) and take a utensil and drop the Tylan encapsulated pill into the pouch and give it to Nala this way after she eats her meal (or when she is eating her meal) .

The food you are preparing is good BUT you are probably giving too high of a percentage of carbs/fiber... so if you can give something other than rice / or include something else to cut down on the rice, that might be helpful too, Many EPI dogs just cannot handle too much fiber (rice)... not all, but many have a problem with it..
What other kinds of vegetables to you have readily available that dogs can eat???

The aim for a diet should be more like approximately 75% meat/protein and 25% vegetables.....
Again, if you can tell me how much Nala weighs then i can give you better information on what to feed her.

Also... if this is more SID than EPI out of control- -and if so, once you get it under control with Tylan.... it is possible she may not need CREON 25 but might do well with just CREON 10 or two CREON 10s with each meal... but we will have to wait and see on this one .

Weekly B12 shots (simple serum NOT the multivitamin / complex one!) would be very beneficial.

And... once you start doing home-feeding more than just a few weeks, you will want to make sure that you give a quality dog vitamin daily and bone matter, whether via crushed egg shells or bone meal or something. It is crucial that they get bone material in one form or another daily.

Looking forward to hearing more info from you so that we can better help Nala
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

nala_indie
Member
Posts: 7
Country: India
Pet name: NALA
My name: Seshank

Re: New member introduction

Post by nala_indie » 18 Sep 2019, 01:25

Olesia711 wrote: 17 Sep 2019, 16:34 thank you SO much for answering my questions!

Now i try to help you out as best i can.

WOW!!.. you are traveling 350 miles to have the TLI test done?. You are one very lovely and caring doggie earth angel!!!

Your vet is 100% correct in advising you to give CREON with every meal! And do not give and treats/snacks in between (or at least not at this time). What you might want to try is sprinkling the CREON on the food and serving immediately. The CREON is enteric coated so there is no need to incubate. If this doesn't help.... another technique is to give the CREON as a whole capsule tucked in some food or something and given about 5 minute prior to a meal.

I suspect the awful poo that you are seeing might be due more in part to SID (that is present with EPI, IBD, IBS, etc) than 100% due to EPI. So... i also suspect that once you give enough Tylan... you might see the poo quality improve.

How much does she weigh????? and how much Tylan powder are you giving per meal???????
This will be very important in helping her get better.

Also, since she doesn't like the taste of Tylan (many dogs don't)... take the amount of Tylan powder you need to give her, make a little paper funnel and pour that needed amount of Tylan powder into an empty gel cap. When this is done, wash your hands with soap and water before touching anything because Tylan powder is air-borne and dogs will taste it on everything. SOOOoooo once your hands are clean, make a pouch with some sort of soft food (i use cream cheese, not sure if you have something similar there.. or you can use mashed cooked and peeled yams, or something kind of soft and mushy that you have that dogs can safely eat) and take a utensil and drop the Tylan encapsulated pill into the pouch and give it to Nala this way after she eats her meal (or when she is eating her meal) .

The food you are preparing is good BUT you are probably giving too high of a percentage of carbs/fiber... so if you can give something other than rice / or include something else to cut down on the rice, that might be helpful too, Many EPI dogs just cannot handle too much fiber (rice)... not all, but many have a problem with it..
What other kinds of vegetables to you have readily available that dogs can eat???

The aim for a diet should be more like approximately 75% meat/protein and 25% vegetables.....
Again, if you can tell me how much Nala weighs then i can give you better information on what to feed her.

Also... if this is more SID than EPI out of control- -and if so, once you get it under control with Tylan.... it is possible she may not need CREON 25 but might do well with just CREON 10 or two CREON 10s with each meal... but we will have to wait and see on this one .

Weekly B12 shots (simple serum NOT the multivitamin / complex one!) would be very beneficial.

And... once you start doing home-feeding more than just a few weeks, you will want to make sure that you give a quality dog vitamin daily and bone matter, whether via crushed egg shells or bone meal or something. It is crucial that they get bone material in one form or another daily.

Looking forward to hearing more info from you so that we can better help Nala
Thank Olesia.
So, Nala right now is 16.5 kg (36.3 lbs) , before the sickness the best she weighed was 21 (46.2 lbs).
She's not really fond of vegetables, however we mix carrots and sweet potato at times in her food, should we do that daily?
We do have broccoli, cucumber, mushrooms, beans etc available. I assume these are safe for dogs?

I started giving her Tylan just yesterday for Dinner, according to the instructions on the label as well as my Vets suggestion we gave her 1/8 tsp for the meal. Planning to give it twice a day. Please advice.

We used to give her Beaphor Top 10 tablet, 1 every day before the sickness, should we continue with those? I'll see what i can do about the bone matter.

Also can i give her kibble as well? I read somewhere on the forum grain free, less than 4% fibre kibble is good. Will kibble provide a better overall nutrition?

Again, i can't Thank you enough for helping me out here :)

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New member introduction

Post by jilbert57 » 18 Sep 2019, 09:29

Hi Nala,

I can help answer a few questions.
My Kiya is 39.0 pounds and gets 1/8 teaspoon Tylan 2 times a day. You are giving the correct dose.

Kibble is a fine meal following the grain free 4% fiber or less protocol. It all comes down to what your dog will eat and thrive on. Kibble, home cooked, canned just what works best for your dog. Please remember enzymes are not a supplement but a necessity in EPI. Every piece of food needs enzymes

As far as veggies, just keep in mind evtra fiber. I would think all those veggies are fine. Broccoli can be gas producing keep in mind.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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