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Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 12 Sep 2019, 17:43
by AnubisofGuardian
Hello all,
I'm new to this forum although I've had my EPI shepherd for ten years now. He was diagnose at just over a year old and he's been relatively stable for the last eight plus years. Now though in the last eight months he's seems to be heading downhill. He's having fecal incontinence issues and its been a couple of weeks since his stools have even come close to somewhat normal. He seems to be more lethargic lately as well but other than that he seems fairly normal and happy. I suspect that it might be an issue with his B12 levels so I will be looking into a supplement for him. The vets up here don't know much at all about his condition and actually rely more on me to help them when coming up with a treatment. I can't even seem to load him in my SUV anymore without him having an accident. I have him on 3tsp of the Panc-Aid powder in his food, I don't really want to have to increase that amount at its very expensive here to get. If anyone has any ideas of things I can look into, I'm happy to hear them.

Thank you all in advance!

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 12 Sep 2019, 18:34
by Michaela
Welcome! :)

Our Shepherds are about the same age, my Nikki will be 10 in November. I don't know how much you are paying for your enzymes but we us Pan-tenex and have been very happy. ... nex-canada

Also check with Diane:

Some other members will chime in soon with suggestions on how to help your boy, you're in good hands, this is the BEST group!

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 12 Sep 2019, 21:13
by Tuckaboo.
Enzyme Diane! i think I am now paying about 25% of what I paid for enzymes from my vet. And I wonder if your vet would watch this video. ... -dogs.aspx

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 12 Sep 2019, 23:25
by jilbert57
Hi and welcome to the forum.
How much enzyme are you using per cup of dry kibble are you using? Sometimes as dogs get older the enzyme needs to be tweaked up.
Here is the link for the Wonderlabs B12 with Intrinsic Factor:


Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 00:17
by TerryBin
Hello and Welcome! Glad to hear all has gone well for so many years. Have you had a vet take a look lately? Sometimes we think everything is related to EPI and these pups still get many other conditions. Fecal incontinence is not a normal symptom of EPI....if it is so liquid that may be why the incontinence but there could be something else going on besides the EPI. As the pups get older they often need more enzymes with their food and low B12 can also make the poops bad. Maybe try upping the enzyme by 1/8tsp and start B12 supplements. Keep us posted.
Beautiful Shiloh. Wonderful pups aren't they?!

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 12:28
by AnubisofGuardian
Thank you all for the warm welcome!

For the last couple of years the vet has had Anubis on the Hills Z/D diet and its helped a little but he still gets flare ups of severe diarrhea, gas and vomiting plus I've been having to feed him a total of nearly eight cups of kibble a day just to try and maintain his current weight at 53kg. (Hills Z/D = Protien - 19.1%; Fat - 14.4%; Fiber - 4.4%; Cal - 354Kal/cp) He's on the lean side which is great for a dog his size (32" withers) but over the last eight months he's been dropping weight and I hadn't made any changes to his diet and the enzymes had gone from 1 1/2 tsp to 3 tsp in the last year or so. I've found this other type of food from the local feed store called First Mate with this ingredient list:
Ocean Fish Meal Burbank Potato Norkotah Potato Tomato Pomace Chicken Fat (Mixed Tocopherols) Dicalcium Phosphate Choline Chloride Calcium Propionate Minerals (Zinc Proteinate Iron Proteinate Manganese Proteinate Copper Proteinate Iodine Cobalt Carbonate Selenium Yeast) Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement Riboflavin Niacin D-pantothenic Acid Thiamine hydrochloride Vitamin A Supplement Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Biotin Folic Acid Vitamin B12 Supplement Vitamin D3 Supplement) Yeast Extract Glucosamine Hydrochloride (Break down is: Protein - 23%; Fat - 10%; Fiber - 8%; Cal - 484kal/cp)

Is this a good choice to switch him to? I know EPI dogs are a trail and error and there's no 'one cure' for everyone but it breaks my heart to see him losing weight and being so lethargic. He had a cysts on his shoulder removed in July and they did a basic blood panel on him then and it didn't show anything. I also had his spine, hips and knees xrayed as he's been tripping like crazy over his own two back feet. Vet said that he has arthritis in his lumbar discs and especially where they connect to his hips. The knees and hips themselves were great. The incontinence appears mostly related to when his stools are very loose, much like the number '7' on the poop chart.

I will chat with my vet and see about getting him hooked up on this site or even some of the other informational pages I've located in my ongoing research. In the clinic there's only one other dog besides mine that has EPI. They use a number of my dog's xrays as case studies for students that come in for practical experience. For a 4 ounce tub of enzyme I pay about $105 CAN and that usually lasts me about two to two and a half weeks. The Z/D bag of food also costs me about the same for the same length of time. Sorry for the long post but I really appreciate all the feedback and knowledge!!

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 13 Sep 2019, 12:33
by jilbert57
Hi Rhonnie,
The First Mate is great food. The fish has 8% fiber. We recommend 4% or lower for Epi dogs. Is there one with lower fiber?


Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 14 Sep 2019, 15:27
by Barb
Welcome to you and your handsome boy! I am sorry he is having difficulties. For sure I would recommend that he have B12 supplements. Wonderlabs has very reasonable B12 capsules with Intrinsic Factor which you need in B12 pills so that it can be absorbed. You can get 120 capsules for about $18.

Also, if this is EPI related, can you clarify the amount of food and enzymes he is getting? Is he getting 8 cups of food with 3 tsp of enzymes? I am not sure if that is what you meant to say.

However, I am wondering about your pup tripping over his back legs and the fecal incontinence. As Terry said, sometimes we see everything through our EPI lens because that has been our focus with our pups for years.....and then something else sneaks up on us. When he has his accidents, does he not seem to know that he has to go or does the diarrhea just come too fast? Have you noticed that he crosses his hind legs when standing or they turn inward? I think you said the vet said this was due to arthritis.

Hopefully, you can get some answers for your boy when you see your vet again. He is a beauty.


Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 15 Sep 2019, 19:56
by Wabasmom
Welcome...I’m sorry your going through this. Please let me know if you find a solution. Our boy is almost eleven years old and he is having identical issues as yours. I live up north too in a smaller town and vet here is not very well versed in EPI. I will be following this feed

Re: Older Shiloh Shepherd

Posted: 15 Sep 2019, 21:12
by Olesia711
I am so sorry to hear that Anubis is faltering....and you just are not sure what is going on. It is so hard to watch them struggle and not have any answers.

I am guessing that "maybe" your vet has him on that prescription food because of possible IBD or food sensitivities in addition to EPI??? You might need to try a different hydrolyzed food at this point.. if he does have food sensitivities..... if not, then yes the First Mate sounds like a great food!.

Tripping over his back legs and fecal incontinence sounds like something else might be going on.... :(
If just Arthritis, my dogs (elder now) have done very well with a Gabapentin morning and night for the pain.
However, before things got super difficult for them, i did use Traumeel for years (worked better than Rimadyl with no adverse effects) and i used System Saver for Dogs.....within 5 days i saw marked improvement. BUT..... before buying/trying any supplements... it sounds like it would be best to first find out what is really going on.

Please keep us posted!