New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by jilbert57 » 20 Apr 2020, 22:26

Lisa, when you are at the pharmacy ask for some empty gel caps. Look up the dose for Sadie so you need to be able to fit the dose in the capsule. Feed it with an enzymed meal in some cream cheese or peanut butter or the likes.

How to camouflage Tylan
Tylan is very nasty – bitter tasting… some dogs will take it mixed in their meals… others will not…

Here on the epi4dogs forum we share creative ideas… often tips on saving money. Below is a great home-made idea by Maureen, Byrnn’s mom on how to encapsulate Tylan powder without spending a lot .

“Here is a way to get Tylan down instead of putting it in the food. My Brynn stopped eating very early on because Tylan was on her food. So I got “00” gelatin capsules from a compound pharmacy, a block of florist foam from the dollarstore (and poked holes in it with a pencil), used a cake decorator tip as a funnel and measure out 1/8 tsp Tylan per capsule. There is still some room to add a pinch more if needed. I just pop these down her throat right before her meal. ” – Maureen.

Similarly, inexpensive encapsulators and gel caps are available from health food stores or online at retailers like Amazon.

One size “00” size capsule equals 1/8 teaspoon of Tylan powder."


Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

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Sadie'sMom
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My name: Lisa

Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Sadie'sMom » 21 Apr 2020, 06:23

Good Morning Jill:

What a wonderful surprise to wake up to your message and some GREAT suggestions on how to get much needed meds into a dog that turns her nose up at EVERYTHING you put in front of her - except for steak.

A local pharmacy is making the compound this morning for us to pick up as our vet doesn't carry it. I will talk to them about everything you said below. THANK YOU for the great suggestions - I am definitely going to use them. I am so glad Maureen shared her idea of how to get the med into the pup - great idea! Sadie loves peanut butter - so that will make things easier. Can the SEB be put in a capsule and given the same way? Or does it have to be mixed with water? Will Sadie need to take SEB daily the rest of her life now?

I have a lot of reading to do on this site about SID - but would sincerely appreciate any information you/this group could provide on it.

My EPI family is my lifeline and I honestly do not know what I would do without you and the others. Thank you for your continued help, Jill.

I look forward to hearing back from you (as always). :)

Lisa
Sadie is a Golden Retriever. She eats Authority Grain Free Chicken & Pea kibble. With each meal she gets 5 scoops (1 1/4 tsp's) of Diane's Enzymes and a WonderLabs B-12 with Intrinsic factor. She gets 1 Proviable-DC probiotic per day. Diagnosed in September 2019 with EPI.

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Jean
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Jean » 21 Apr 2020, 06:57

Hi Lisa from the UK again

sorry to have been MIA but I have had back problems, still have, and its surgery, so,,,,,,

My Kara turned her nose up at anything, and everything, except cat food !

eventually, after many bags of food to rescues and tears from me, we resorted to plain live yougurt, which she loved

and as for liking steak ,sensible dog, you could always cook it and whizz it so its crumbs, and then mix that with whatever, might work

but this is the one........lambs liver, pan fried, very little, or no oil with garlic, all of my fur friends cat and dog would fight you for it, Kara used to sit by the stove when it was cooking, and then, added enzymes mixed it all up, and down it went

she would eat some food we eventually got for her, and did so for 9 years


good luck

hugs

jean xxxx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Sadie'sMom
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Sadie'sMom » 21 Apr 2020, 07:12

Good Morning Jean!

I'm so sorry to hear that you continue to struggle with your back. I had back surgery (it failed - but I have lots of great hardware now!) and live with chronic pain in my back and hips (osteoarthritis throughout body). My thoughts are with you and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my plea for help.

I believe you were responding to my question about how to get SEB into Sadie and you suggested yogurt. I can certainly try it --- but she turns her nose up at EVERYTHING - so I would be shocked if she would eat yogurt - but anything is worth trying at this point! Did you give your pup SEB daily for life? If so, how many times per day?

So, can we use steak, hamburger, chicken, etc. to get her to take her meds? She loves her meat - so this would be great if we could do that!

Thank you for your continued help!

Lisa
Sadie is a Golden Retriever. She eats Authority Grain Free Chicken & Pea kibble. With each meal she gets 5 scoops (1 1/4 tsp's) of Diane's Enzymes and a WonderLabs B-12 with Intrinsic factor. She gets 1 Proviable-DC probiotic per day. Diagnosed in September 2019 with EPI.

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Jean
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Jean » 21 Apr 2020, 11:58

I have spinal stenosis which is the crimping of the nerves in my spine, its horrible, and I feel for you

as far as I was concerned I would mix enzymes with anything for Kara, she was an enigma, my guess is try it and see

as she got older she became almost normal, so long as she had her two meals a day with enzymes, we could give her treats, which was bizarre, she would have a tub of live yogurt over two days, she loved milk, and ice cream she would fight you for

We never gave Slippery ,she couldnt tollerate it, she had Tylan twice daily all of her life, and Zantac for her gut occasionally, she had serious reflux but we sorted it...........

I can truthfully say she had most things wrong, but we, in conjunction with Uncle Ian the vet, we sorted it one at a time, paws ears shedding bowel, etc.

i WISH YOU LUCK

HUGS
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We use Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Apr 2020, 13:49

Hi,

and please try not to feel overwhelmed..... as we are here for you and will help as best we can....
First there is no reliable test for SID.... in short, all EPI dogs have SID... Our goal as caretakers of these lovely souls is to just keep SID in check to the best of our ability and you do that by assessing the dog's health in general... the poo, etc. Here are some signs (just a FYI) that SID is out of control:
If the dog displays any repeated signs such as yellowish-coloring to the stools, loose stools, gelatinous stool coating, flatulence, lack of appetite, stomach noises, low or low normal B12 then treat for out of control secondary SID/SIBO.

SO.... glad you vet is going to get you some Tylan. You can actually have the powder compounded into pills but that is hugely expensive.
My dog Izzy, who always ate anything i gave her.... backed away from her bowl when i tried to mix tylan in her food and THEN she acted as if i had tried to poison her and refused to eat for 2 whole days..... but it learned......come to find out... for those that are really turned off by it (cuz there are some dog that will eat it mixed in their food with no issues!) but for others... OMG....it can be a nightmare... unless you know some camouflaging tricks.......

Anyway... what i learned is that Tylan powder gets airborne... so what i had to do is:
1. pour the designated amount of Tylan (according to my dog's weight) into an empty gel cap.
2. then wash my hands good with soap and water... to get rid of any airborne Tylan residue
3. take a dab of cream cheese...make a little pouch ... and use the cream cheese pouch to surround the Tylan filled capsule.... and seal the cream cheese pouch... (visualize making an itty bitty ravioli or tiny perogi!!)
4. and then i would give this tiny pouch to m dog with the Tylan capsule hidden inside :)

Worked like a charm!

If you use meat, it is going to be hard to wrap it around powder.... unless you do the above (put it in a capsule) and then wrap the capsule with a soft meat.
If your vet gets you Tylan pills... then the taste might not be bad.... but yes, you can then tuck it in any meat that will stay on the pill :).. what might work well is a pill is to tuck the pill into a small piece of cooked chicken liver.... cheap for you to buy and stinky enough to camouflage any adverse smell & or taste of Tylan.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Apr 2020, 14:45

Lisa,

What we do want to mention to you is.... First implement the Tylan to treat SID..... however... if you notice that all these symptoms return.... then the next thing you should really look at is the diet you are feeding Sadie... a few of us noticed that you are feeding a "pea" formula..... and what has been observed in EPI dogs is that many of our dogs cannot tolerate peas... there has even been some research done on EPI and peas are the worst offender- -give the EPI patients outrageous gas and loose stools (typical nasty out of control SID). Although if peas is low on the list of ingredients, then some dogs can tolerate it to some degree, while others cannot.

SO..... just putting this out there..... that if things improve, but not completely.... the next thing to try is a different food. lThe last few years, I personally used SPORT food (the elite series) which was grain free and no peas... however, you can go on CHEWEY website and look specifically for grain free foods with no peas and look for those that have 4% or less (less is actually better) of fiber content...or look at foods that are grain free and peas are only mentioned after the 3rd or 4th item... and mentioned only once.. not multiple times..

Please don't get discouraged... these EPI dogs can be well managed... it is just that going thru the process of finding out what best agrees with YOUR individual EPI dog sometimes is a tedious process, but once you figure out what works best for YOUR dog, you'll be amazed at how well Sadie will do. My gal was diagnosed with EPI at 1+1/2 yrs old..... she just passed away this February at 15 years old... She lived a wonderful life (and gave me a LOT of joy too!) Anyway... l can honestly say taking care of her with her EPI was WAYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy easier than taking care of one of my other dogs who has allergies......... just saying...............
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Barb » 21 Apr 2020, 15:02

Well, for the dogs that always want to outsmart you.....Kolby was always 5 or 6 (or 12!) steps ahead of me......the cream cheese would get licked off the tylan capsule..... which would be left naked on the floor. So I would still have to pill him.

But what I found out was, he liked rewards, so I would just pill him to begin with, then tell him to sit and I would give him a treat of enzymed frozen kibble (very small) that I kept in ice cube trays. To my utter shock, he started to open his mouth willingly for the tylan capsule, then sat and waited for his treat. Who knew??? How I miss him!

Barb

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Apr 2020, 19:59

oh WOW!!!! thanks Barb for sharing that with us... How you gave Tylan to Kolby! We sure come up with some very "creative" techniques, eh?!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Sadie'sMom
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My name: Lisa

Re: New EPI Diagnosis - Feeling Overwhelmed...

Post by Sadie'sMom » 22 Apr 2020, 14:05

Jean, Olesia & Barb:

Wow! First, thank you ALL for your help, suggestions and encouragement. Jill gives me a lot of personal encouragement in e-mails which really helps too.

It has been a roller coaster ride with Sadie since she first got sick --- and that was only 8 months ago --- but it feels like 2 years ago. After we got her diagnosis and got her stabilized (thanks to all of you wonderful people at EPI) ....we could finally breathe. We had it GREAT for many months and I started to try a few things - most of which she tolerated. But I learned a quick lesson a few days ago - I need to be more diligent in watching what I give her. I'm sure it was those small bits of potato in that food that put her in a tailspin as nothing else happened during that time. After several "scary" days of her being pretty sick --- she finally turned the corner this morning! Her poop was 100% normal again! (She was starting to get a bit better late day yesterday and ate great last night - but she was only at 75% better). She is back to 100% energy, her eyes are brighter, she is eating great and normal poop.

Olesia - out of the list below - she has never really had any of those things. The only thing we ever notice is that immediately after eating, she burps once. But I think that's because she has a tendency to eat a bit too fast. But.....I do believe you (and Jill) that she does have SID (just not full blown yet). The vet ordered Tylan for us and I ordered a bag of 00 capsules to fill them. (The local pet pharmacy here wanted $55 for 40 pills!!!) I am going to hold off on giving her any right now since she is doing great. But I LOVE having it available so that I can immediately give it to her if/when she gets sick again.

Olesia - thank you for the great tip about how to fill the capsule AND about washing your hands before giving it. Sadie is leery of everything and she smells the heck out of something before she puts it in her mouth. If she got 1 bitter pill --- that would be it for her. I was hoping she could tolerate the SEB....but she couldn't. Do you think this is something I should try again in the future if/when she gets ill? I'm just worried that once she smells or tastes it again she is going to vomit it right back up because of bad memories. Why do dogs have to be so smart?

Barb - thank you for the tip on giving her the pill. I think that that is going to be the way we have to give it to Sadie. I hate forcing her to take something - but it is what it is when it comes to keeping them healthy.

Olesia - Sadie has been doing great on her food. I am not adverse at all to trying something new ---- even though I am honestly a bit scared to try new dog food anytime soon after the scare we just had. But I think we should probably get her onto a different food. I'm not married to the Authority brand (just like it because I can go to Petsmart and grab a bag easily) - but Authority makes a Chicken & Rice formula that is grain free and under 4% fiber. Would that be okay for her? Or is rice a no-no?

I remember reading a post once (Olesia - it might have been you) where the person said that there dog was stable and then one weekend they went out of town and a neighbor boy was in charge of feeding the pup and didn't follow the rules correctly and when you got home - you had a sick pup on your hands. But in a few days you got the dog back on track and she/he was just fine. It's funny how when people share stories like this - they may not have any idea the impact it has on another person down the road. Remembering that story is what honestly helped me get through the last few days. I kept telling myself that this was a bump in the road and in a few days, Sadie will be back to herself. That this wasn't permanent - it would get better.

I have said it many times in my posts.....but this group of amazing people is my lifeline and the reason I don't fall apart with worry (more than I do) --- because of all of the help, guidance and tips everyone is so willing to give. I would be lost without all of you (and this, of course includes Jill and everyone else who has helped us). Fingers crossed Sadie has crossed the bridge back to the healthy zone.

Hugs - Lisa & Sadie
Sadie is a Golden Retriever. She eats Authority Grain Free Chicken & Pea kibble. With each meal she gets 5 scoops (1 1/4 tsp's) of Diane's Enzymes and a WonderLabs B-12 with Intrinsic factor. She gets 1 Proviable-DC probiotic per day. Diagnosed in September 2019 with EPI.

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