EPI and mood/aggression

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Nedlands
Member
Posts: 15
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Titan
My name: Neal

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Nedlands » 05 Dec 2019, 17:21

Jean,
Thanks for the input. My current vet has been as much use as a chocolate teapot. They gave me capsules of Tylan powder and dosed at 1/day.... I am going to order a tub of powder from an online vet supplier so I can get his dosage right.
I have put Titan on a chicken/rice/cottage cheese diet to try to stabilize his stomach. He is really not very interested in eating it at first but then empties the bowl once he gets going. I am adding enzymes, water and 1 Tylan capsule to the meal but his stool was pretty malformed this afternoon, although the color was better than on kibble.
I am waiting on B12 with intrinsic factor to arrive and will go from there. Appointment with new vet is still 3 weeks out unfortunately but should be worth the wait if I can get him stabilized first and have a better idea of what is going on with him.

Neal

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Madelon » 05 Dec 2019, 21:24

Hi Neal. Sorry I am so late to respond. If you can, would you mind posting a picture of the Tylan bottle or the exact name of it - I have not heard of Tylan being in capsule form. I am SO SO sorry your vet has recommended putting your dog down - that is NOT necessary - EPI dogs when properly treated go on to live long happy, healthy lives. My boy became aggressive towards other dogs after diagnosis and being charged by some dogs while walking in the neighborhood - his B12 is well above 600, however, he is still aggressive towards other dogs - fine with people and fine with the dog we had in the home prior to getting him although he does grumble at her to keep her in line but has NEVER been mean - I now take precautions and when we go to the vet I call ahead of time - leave him in the car and go in to let them know I'm there - they get the room ready and when no one is around with another dog we go through the side entrance and straight to the room. Just because he does not like other dogs does not mean he needs to be put down. As for aggression towards people, hopefully the B12 will help with that.

There are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI: Enzymes (I think you're squared away there but just to be sure - use 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix in luke warm water, then mix in kibble, incubate for 20-30 minutes before serving - most of us use EnzymeDiane Pancreatin 6x); B12 (as said EPI dogs need their B12 on the high side of normal 600+ - you can do shots but if your dog does not do well at the vet like mine - you can try using WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills - depending on weight you can give 2 pills a day - am and pm - my boy is 95lbs and I give 2 pills a day - either sprinkle on the food or give the capsule whole); Antibiotics (if dealing with SID we recommend Tylan for 45 days and then slowly wean off - do not quit cold turkey - it should come in a tub/bottle not capsules and you can get it without prescription from Froys [i think that's the name]); Food (the last and sometimes hardest piece of the puzzle - we recommend 4% fiber or less, grain free and avoid peas, legumes and chicken).

I'm glad you are switching food as even the slightest change in enzymes can make a BIG difference. You said you have some tummy rumbling - how are the poops? Remember to keep your detailed journal as it will be your guide and Bible in managing EPI. Please keep us posted on how things are going and if there's anything we can do to help.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Nedlands
Member
Posts: 15
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Titan
My name: Neal

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Nedlands » 07 Dec 2019, 13:32

Madelon,
The Tylan was prescribed to me by the Vet in question - rather reluctantly I might add! I have been emptying two capsules into food twice daily. I started a baseline chicken/rice/cottage cheese regimen to get him back on track and eating. I am on day 4 of that and slowly transitioning some kibble back into his food. His poo has regained a darker color but consistency is still relatively soft although forming reasonably well. His gut has quietened down a good bit.
I just ordered powdered Tylan from Allivet. Hopefully the Vet co-operates and approves the Rx without question. I am waiting on B12 from Wonderlabs and gave him a shot twice this week to help baseline. He seems much better than he was. Enzymes are the 6x from Diane.
This has been a pretty stressful episode. we have been "coping" with his EPI for the past 4 years and I wish I had found this site earlier. So much good advice and way more than my Vet has. It seems like it is almost too much bother for some Vets. We are moving Vet but can't get an appointment until 12/27. Plan is to run a full baseline TLI and Cobalamin B12 test on him and then to have regular checks. The existing vet didn't stress how important B12 is to both digestion and brain function.
Choosing food is a tough one. I had him on Earthborn Large Breed - Fibre is supposed to by <5%.. The Victor grain free I bought has <3.8% but has peas as the 3rd or 4th ingredient! The search continues - perhaps a trip to Tractor Supply is on today's agenda!

I can't thank this forum enough for their support and inputs.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Barb » 07 Dec 2019, 19:51

I'm glad you have a plan for Titan and that he seems to be improving already. As you help him to alleviate his physical symptoms, he will feel better. I heartily endorse keeping a journal /log of everything you give him, the amounts, and the resulting poos. It's amazing what you learn from seeing all this in writing. Sometimes pattern emerge that you would never have seen if you hadn't written it down. It saved our sanity at the beginning and I go back to it when problems arise.

I am curious about why you are repeating the TLI test. Did I understand that correctly? Do You know what Titan's original score was? Once our pups are diagnosed with EPI there really isn't a need to go through the expense of a repeat test, so I was wondering what the reason might be.

I hope Titan continues to improve. Let us know what the new vet says and how Titan is doing.

Barb

Nedlands
Member
Posts: 15
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Titan
My name: Neal

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Nedlands » 08 Dec 2019, 17:40

Barb,
Unfortunately indont have details of his TLI test. The vet has been very unhelpful providing information to date and only really does anything if I push them. With the new vet I figured it might be best to start from baseline zero and go from there. I will see what their advice is
Today is day 2 on Wonderlabs B12. He is much calmer already

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 08 Dec 2019, 19:18

I am so glad you'll be changing vets! I can't imagine putting down my dog because he was frightened; it would be like fulfilling his greatest fears. I can empathize with you, though. Tucker, my EPI boy, has become increasingly frightened of noises and of new situations. He used to love to get in the car and go with me to Lowe's, but now he won't even walk to the end of our driveway, much less get into the car. If he hears someone hammering a nail, or a dumpster lid closing, he is terrified. Tucker takes WonderLabs Pet Factor, and has taken it for months, so I'm noy sure why this is happening. I'll follow your story, in hopes the B12 works for your pup. Take care---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Madelon » 08 Dec 2019, 22:07

Hi there. Just wanted to check in to see how things are going. It sounds like B12 is helping already - it's amazing how much B12 helps our pups. Please keep us posted on how things are going.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Jean » 09 Dec 2019, 06:14

Hi Neal

apologies I have been MIA due to not feeling good

its so disheartening when you have a vet who basically wants you out of the surgery

I can truthfully say that we have had the same vets since 1994 ish, three dogs, and 2 cats

NEVER have they said to me to PTS

in fact when Kara was 38 pounds at 14 months, Uncle Ian the vet, said we were not going to lose her on his watch

you saying he is calmer is so encouraging, one of my friends moved vets , was she angry with hers !

Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Rioismygirl

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Rioismygirl » 09 Dec 2019, 06:28

Hi Neal,

MOVE VETS. I can’t stress that enough. At exactly this time last year, this happened to me. I found Jean on this forum and my Rio is back to her old self now. I moved vets, the one she was with had no idea about her condition, none at all. I went round and round in circles for a couple of weeks with them, asked for help in person and on the phone so many times, they were awful. You’ve found the right place here, you’ve found Jean. Jean is a god send. I took Jean’s advice and followed it religiously. I moved vets, Rio was treated with the right medication and now we have got the dosage right and she’s ok. Some vets know nothing about this condition, seriously, nothing. Jean does and so does my new vet.

All the best, Sarah

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: EPI and mood/aggression

Post by Jean » 09 Dec 2019, 07:26

Love you Sarah, and Rio, cant believe its a year, you dint think Rio would make it, i told you she would

Merry everything

Love

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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