New member: Daisy's story

[Madelon]

Hi Faye! Welcome to our EPI family. I'm sorry you have to be here but at least you have a proper diagnosis and of all the things our pups can get diagnosed with, EPI is manageable and while there's no cure they do go on to live long, happy, healthy lives . Your post is in the exact right place - no need to move it

Jill has given you some great advice. Just to go over a few things again. It is REALLY important in the beginning of EPI to keep things as simple as possible - food, enzymes, B12 and antibiotics for SID (if needed). The problem with adding in probiotics, pre-biotics and other supplements is that you don't know if your dog can tolerate them or not and believe me you'd be surprised how many EPI dogs cannot tolerate certain supplements.

As Jill said there are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI:
Enzymes - glad you are using a generic enzymes as they are less expensive. I do not have personal use of Pan-Tenex but from what others have said that use it the preparation is very similar to EnzymeDiane Pancreatin enzymes. Start off using 3/4tsp per cup of kibble, mix the enzymes with a little luke warm water, then add in kibble and let it incubate 20-30 minutes before serving.

B12 - when your dog was tested for EPI they should have tested B12 and Folate at the same time - can you ask the vet that did the test to give you the results of that and post it here? B12 supplementing is for life with these dogs and is CRITICAL to properly managing EPI. EPI dogs need their B12 level on the high side of normal 600+ - they are unable to maintain B12 without supplementing. You can either do shots or use the WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills (very inexpensive and easy to administer) - they have intrinsic factor which helps with B12 absorption.

Antibiotics - if dealing with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) we recommend a 45 day course of Tylan antibiotics and then SLOWLY wean off. HOWEVER, even if dealing with SID - in the beginning we recommend giving the proper enzymes, B12 and food 2 weeks to see if the gut will correct itself before trying antibiotics.

Food - this is sometimes the hardest part of the EPI puzzle to figure out. We recommend grain free with 4% fiber or less - the reason for the low fiber is because fiber can interfere with the efficacy of the enzymes. Try to avoid or limit peas, legumes and chicken - for some reason a lot of EPI dogs are not able to tolerate chicken after diagnosis - even if they could before - my boy is one of those. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog SHOULD be not the weight they are but feed in smaller more frequent meals throughout the day.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and everything that comes out - that will help you determine what works and what doesn't. Again, I can't stress enough how important it is in the beginning to not give additional supplements/medications unless they are critically needed for another condition. Once your dog is stable, good poops weight gain for a 2-3 months then you can slowly add in one supplement (starting with half the dose) and wait 3-5 days to see how things go.

Don't worry we will be here to help guide you through this process.

[Madelon]

Hi Faye - I apologize I did not look at the food you are using until I saw it on another post. It appears even the grain free version has some types of grains and legumes which typically don't do well with our EPI dogs. So, if you are not able to get the poops firmed up following the protocol, you might want to try switching food to a true grain free, avoiding peas and legumes with 4% fiber or less. We've found over the years even changing to a food with the fiber a little less than the previous food used can make a huge difference - I found my boy does best with 3.5% or less fiber.

[faye grimm]

Hello Madelon
Wow .. that is going to be hard to find a clean low fiber kibble.
What I like about the Carna4 products is they do not use synthetic ingredients/chemicals which I think is extremely important.
I am open to exploring any suggestions.
I am convinced I should hold off on he other supplements,

Canidae was mentioned here and yes, it is low in crude fiber, but it also has 'peas' and salmon [which is likely farmed and farmed fish are pretty toxic]. There are other things that bother me including most nutrients appear to be chemical based as opposed to food sourced. Here is the ingredient breakdown I found for Canidae:
Salmon; salmon meal; menhaden fish meal; sweet potatoes; peas; canola oil; suncured alfalfa; potatoes; natural flavor; minerals (iron proteinate; zinc proteinate; copper proteinate; ferrous sulfate; zinc sulfate; copper sulfate; potassium iodide; manganese proteinate; manganous oxide; manganese sulfate; sodium selenite); vitamins (vitamin E supplement; thiamine mononitrate; ascorbic acid; vitamin A supplement; biotin; niacin; calcium pantothenate; pyridoxine hydrochloride; vitamin B12 supplement; riboflavin; vitamin D3 supplement; folic acid); choline chloride; mixed tocopherols (a preservative); dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product; dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product; dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product; dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product; dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract

Any food - human or for animals - that does not say ORGANIC or NON GMO PROJECT and especially products from large corporations will use less costly artificial and GMO ingredients.
I have researched GMOs and they are not safe. Most of the honest and revealing studies were done by independent labs, scientists not in the employ of Monsanto and were dutifully ignored, downplayed or ridiculed in the mainstream media.
I work with some groups that are opposed to mandatory vaccinations and am well schooled in how flawed and skewed studies paid for by the industry are and how actual detrimental information is withheld from the public.
There have been many things that are "FDA approved" which should not be.
So forgive my reluctance to eagerly embrace certain "approved" foods.

NATURAL FLAVOR is a cover name for MSG, also salt, sugar and chemical ingredients. I know that sounds counter intuitive but it is meant to ... https://www.purefoodcompany.com/what-ar ... l-flavors/

Canola oil is RAPE SEED OIL and was never meant for consumption but intended for industrial use: "...rapeseed oil has been an important component of lubricants for ships and steam engines, because unlike most oils, it sticks to wet metal."
The Inconvenient Truth About Canola Oil | Small Footprint Family™
https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/th ... canola-oil

Take a look at the Carna4 ingredients if you haven't already done so. If you scroll down you can see all product ingredients.
http://carna4.com/our-products/carna4-g ... -dog-food/

Please understand I am not arguing with you about this, just sharing my understanding of what it takes for any food to be truly healthy and nutritious.

I am sincerely interested in learning more and realize I may be off base in regard to what Daisy actually needs and realize I might need to compromise some of my 'sensibilities' for Daisy's condition and will ask my holistic vet, Kala about the fiber content issue.
I will share what you all have been telling me with her but will rely on her advice for any final decisions. I will let you know what she thinks and why.

As for the EPI test, that was all I had done at the time. There was another part suggested by this other vet but she said we could do it later to keep the cost down and I suspect that was the SID test though I was unfamiliar with the term she used at the time. After all the tests we did this month I was pretty broke. So now that I understand more I will have that done after the first.

I am learning so much from you all.
Again, thank you
faye

[jilbert57]

Hi Faye,
Everyone comes to this site for help on EPI. I surely understand your wanting the best of everything for your Daisey. We all want the best for our pets.
There might be times down the road where you have to say to yourself is this best for EPI?

Here is our page on diets that members dogs are doing well on. Maybe you can research and find one that fits your wants for Daisy's needs and try it:

https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/

There are many a person who thinks prescription foods are crap but sometimes a condition or disease warrants it. I had a jack that ate prescription for 15 years and now I have a 13 yo aussie heeler with a heart condition that is eating Royal Canin and doing great. Neither the aussie or current jack have EPI.

It is all about what your dog will thrive on and also be manageable with EPI.

We all worry about vaccinating an EPI dog or over vaccinating. A lot of members do titres.
We can't cross the border in to Canada without a current vaccination record on both pups.

Hopefully you can find a diet that fits your bill

Jill

[faye grimm]

BTW: I just rechecked the Carna4 fiber content in all 3 varieties which is at 4% - exactly like the Canidae products

Is Canidae considered a prescription kibble? Are there others?

Would one of you more experienced doggie parents please take a look at what Carna4 has ... this link lists all 3 formulas side by side
http://carna4.com/our-products/easy-chew_fish_dog_food/

I am composing an email for Kala right now to share some of your advice and suggestions.
I will let you all know what she says.

[jilbert57]

If you reread Madelons 2nd post, she said you only need to change from the Carna4 if you can't get the poop to firm up.

Some dogs do ok with a few grains, most don't.

Prescription diets are ones available only through your vet. Canidae is not prescription.

Jill

[Madelon]

Hi Faye. As Jill said ultimately you have to feed your dog what you are comfortable with feeding and what will manage the EPI best. I feel that I'm a pretty experienced dog owner as I've had dogs all of my life and I've been currently successfully managing my dog's EPI for almost 5yrs. I too had to do A LOT of research on foods because I found soon after his EPI diagnosis that he also has A LOT of food sensitivities - so for me the most important thing was to find a food that met his EPI requirements and then one that met his food sensitivities - not an easy task I assure you. I currently feed Sport Dog Food Elite Herding, which I feel is a really good food but as Jill said there is a long list of foods on our Diet page that you can look at and see if there is one that fits what you are looking for.

With fiber sometimes even reducing it by 1/2% can make a big difference in firming up the poop. My boy cannot tolerate 4% fiber but he does do well on 3.5% or even less.

As for vaccines, it is a personal choice and sometimes a requirement as in Jill's case. After doing research on it, I have my dogs titer tested and I was able to get a medical waiver for my EPI dog. I don't take my dogs to a groomer or board them and they are never outside of our fence so I feel comfortable with the choice I've made for my situation.

If you find a food that your EPI dog is able to get stable on and it's not on our list, please let us know and we will be sure to add it.

[faye grimm]

Thank you Madelon, for your help and patience with me.
I must admit am truly overwhelmed right now.
But we are doing alright on 4-5 meals a day with the enzymes for now.
Her not craving 7 meals is encouraging for a start. And she does not look quite so bony.

I have been pretty sick past few days and have not gone out much so no poop update. Too much property to track them down and it's raining now so that has to wait another day or 2.

I cannot find any info regarding the timing of the enzymes other than 20-30 minutes till eatable. But being sick, a couple of times I laid down and fell asleep, so once it was an hour and the other time about 80 minutes. I imagine that only digests the food better but I have been wrong about so much, I wonder if anyone knows if that is alright or not.
I need to buy an egg timer.

I also need to figure out if barely to lightly cooking meat or raw is best. I used to go raw and then the herbalist/pet supply shop owner told me never mix kibble with raw meat but she is not a vet either so I am confused. again.
My vet Kala seems to be unavailable right now.

I did call the other vet and will bring Daisy in on the 1st to get the blood draw to test for SID.

Happy new year.
faye

[Madelon]

I'm sorry you're sick - hope you get to feeling better soon. I totally understand about not going out when you're sick and it's raining - I never check the poop when it's raining.

As for how long the food can sit - we usually say not to let it sit out more than an hour but that's mostly to prevent a bacteria issue. Some people do wait an hour before feeding because their dog seems to do better with longer incubation times. You'll just have to watch the poop when you're feeling better.

Glad your pup isn't as hungry as before. It's so encouraging when we see baby steps towards improvement and normalcy.

As for mixing kibble with raw - I don't have any research or anything on it but just as a pet owner I can't see why it would matter if you mix it with kibble. I do know that there are some here that mix home cooked food with kibble. That being said if you're mixing raw to replace some of the kibble you might need to adjust the enzymes.

[faye grimm]

I took a look at the Sport Dog line of kibble. they do seem to make a good product.

I probably don't have to explain how much everyone's info, advice and encouragement means to me.
I know you all have been where Daisy and I are right now.

I'm going to drink some elderberry and nettle tea with fire cider and honey and eat another clove of garlic and go to bed now.
This cold came on so fast I just woke up sick about 4 AM Friday. Usually if I sense it coming on and do the above and it never takes hold but it sneaked up on me this time. This is the first time I've caught a cold in years.
I am over the hump though.

Good night.