What are the best enzymes ?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Yogibear » 27 Dec 2019, 10:26

Hello my dog was just diagnosed with epi. I was wondering what is the best enzymes to put him on he is currently on pancreapowder plus. The vet said this is the only kind he can have. I'm not sure but it doesn't seem like my vet knows very much about epi, or they just want me to keep buying the enzymes only from them$. I've read about d ok gs having to be on antibiotics for some time after being diagnosed which my vet hasn't mention. All my vet said once the results came back was to give home 1 tsp twice a day. At first they said he could eat meals in between without the power which I've found out he has to have it on every meal. I've also put him on probiotics which they said he didn't need. His TLI test came back at 1.7 and I'm also giving him 1000 Mcg of b12 daily which is a pill. I need to order more enzymes and don't know what brand to go with. The one he is currently on has stopped the diarrhea but he always seems hungry still and I don't know if it is working. He is also still going to the bathroom at least 3 times a day but no diarrhea. Does he also always have to have small meals? Any suggestions would help.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by jilbert57 » 27 Dec 2019, 12:20

Hi Tiffany.
Welcome to you and Yogi.
Your vet may have meant the Porcine or Beef enzymes is what your pup must have now with every bit of food. Plant based enzymes(ex. Prozyme, Total Zymes, and others) are not strong enough.
A majority of members get their enzymes from enzymediane.com. Diane used to have a pup Sarge with EPI. Her enzymes are very cost effective and she is happy to speak with you.
She also offers a sample bag you can purchase to try.

Did they test Yogi's B12 and folate along with the Tli? An EPI dog needs the B12 up at 600 or higher. Some do great with a 6 week protocol of a B12 shot a week then go on oral B12. The oral B12 MUST include the Intrinsic Factor to be absorbed.

Most dogs when diagnosed have SID(Small Intestinal Disease) and need an antibiotic such as Tylan or Metronidazole. Symptoms are loud stomach noises, slimey poop, etc.

Most dogs do better on a grain free diet of 4% fiber or less.

I am including some links from this site for you to read.

https://epi4dogs.com/enzymes-in-brief/

https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-in-brief/

https://epi4dogs.com/diet-in-brief/

https://epi4dogs.com/b12-in-brief-2/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 28 Dec 2019, 15:16

I'm not feeling very diplomatic. When my vet was not experienced in the treatment of EPI, she referred me to one who was. I think you should search for a vet who has more knowledge, before you waste too much time & money. Read the stories here; you will learn a lot. Ask any question you have. These experienced ladies will guide you through every step. And Enzyme Diane ROCKS! Yours, Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Madelon » 29 Dec 2019, 19:15

Hi Tiffany, welcome to our EPI family. I know things seem very overwhelming right now, but they will quickly become the new normal. Do you know what your dog's B12 and Folate levels were when tested? If not, ask your vet for those numbers - they should have been tested along with the TLI.

There are four cornerstones to properly managing EPI: Enzymes, B12, Antibiotics and Food

ENZYMES: most of us use EnzymeDiane Pancreatin 6x which is about 1/3 of the cost of your prescription enzymes from your vet. Basically her enzymes are like a generic brand. We recommend starting out with 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix in a little luke warm water, then mix in kibble and sit for 20-30 minutes before feeding. Everything you feed must be treated with enzymes and we do not recommend giving treats until your dog is stable (good poops, weight gain for a few months)

B12: EPI dogs need their B12 on the higher side of normal 600+ and supplementing B12 is for life. You can either follow the shot protocol on our website or try WonderLabs Pet Factor B12 pills - these pills contain intrinsic factor which helps with B12 absorption.

ANTIBIOTICS: when first starting out with EPI we recommend giving the proper dose of enzymes, B12 and food two weeks to see if the gut will correct itself before going to antibiotics. If the poop is still not right, then you can either try Slippery Elm Bark powder or Tylan antibiotic. With Tylan we recommend 45 days and then slowly wean off.

FOOD: this can be the hardest part to figure out unfortunately. We recommend grain free with 4% fiber or less - try to avoid or limit peas and legumes. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog SHOULD be but in smaller, more frequent meals throughout the day until the weight is gained back.

As for probiotics, we don't recommend giving probiotics in the beginning because recent research has shown that EPI dogs typically have to much of the lactibacillius family which is what is in most probiotics.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and everything that comes out so you'll know what work and what doesn't. And try to not to worry, we will be here to help you along your EPI journey.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 31 Dec 2019, 05:45

Madelon, The statement on probiotics was news to me. I tried two different kinds on Tucker at the start, one of them very expensive from the vet, and they both gave him loose stools. Tried giving to my other dogs so to not be wasteful, but had the same result. Tucker is not currently taking probiotics, but is on Tylan 1/4 teaspoon 2X day, enzymes & wonderlabs b12. Do you think I should probiotics try again? Thanks!---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Jean
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Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Jean » 01 Jan 2020, 08:17

welcome from the UK

Well i would be very concerned about a vet who advised so badly

please share anything here with the vets

the mantra is food in, enzyme in, the only exeption being water and medication

my vets advised against probiotics for the same reson Madelon says, and Kara couldnt tollerate them same as Tucker

Dianes enzymes are widely used in the States with excellent results

good luck


jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Madelon » 01 Jan 2020, 19:44

Hi Pam. Probiotics are a tricky and touchy subject. As I posted, recent research has shown that EPI dogs appear to have too much of the strain used in most probiotics and too much of a good thing can be bad - in other words the generic probiotics don't always agree with EPI dogs. Moreover, every dog's gut flora is different, much like humans so a one size fits all doesn't necessarily work. That being said, as we always say, every EPI dog is different and some do great on probiotics and some don't. If your dog is doing well, I personally would not fix something that isn't broken, however, you could always try it and see how it goes.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Ruby
Member
Posts: 99
Country: United States
State: Florida

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Ruby » 02 Jan 2020, 21:25

Hi, Just a thought. I used the powder enzymes at first, however, I was allergic to it and my dog wasn't tolerating it well. So I switched to using Creon it is in a capsule form. You can get if from Chemist Warehouse.com no prescription needed. Not very expensive. i give my dog two 10,000 units with 2/34 cups of food twice a day. Enzymes at each meal so the body can digest the food . I also, give her vitamin B12 with intrinsic factor from Wonderlab.. very cheap and good for the EPI dogs. Keeps her B12 up all the time. The reason you need the B12 with inrinsic factor is because the intrinsic factor helps with the digestion of the food.

If you go to use the Creon use should start out with 1 10,00 unit and see how it goes for your dog you may need to use 2 at each meal. I just put the Creon capsule in my hand after running under water real quick and my dog licks it up. You may want to place it in your dogs bowl with food.

This is just another option you may consider. I have been doing this for over 9 years and my dog dose fine.

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Jean
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Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by Jean » 04 Jan 2020, 07:46

good post about Creon

one of our members had to wear a gas mask when using powdered enzymes

thank you


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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CarolinaT
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Posts: 9
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Nilla
My name: Carolina

Re: What are the best enzymes ?

Post by CarolinaT » 25 Sep 2020, 16:26

I'm using Pan-tenex 10x enzymes for my yellow lab/shepherd mix who was recently diagnosed at 12 years. It's working well, but I'm not sure if I should be on the watch for anything. I'm crossing my fingers that the great stools the last two months will continue.

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