Poop consistency

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Rudysmom

Poop consistency

Post by Rudysmom » 27 Jul 2018, 16:56

Hi all,
I'm wondering how long it took your pups to have consistent "normal" poops? Rudy started enzymes on Monday at dinner. He's poop has improved...it's more formed and it doesn't leave much residue on the grass when I pick it up. It's mostly brown but sometimes it has a darker yellow colour. He did just have a poop a few minutes ago and it's the softest I've seen since Tuesday but it's completely brown. Is this "normal" to see? So many changes and kind of back and forth? Does that make sense?
Thanks in advance!

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Madelon
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Madelon » 27 Jul 2018, 18:36

Yes it's completely normal - we call it the poop roller coaster. Can you post a picture - it would help a lot to see exactly what you're seeing.

Also, if you could add a signature to your profile (with your test scores, current food and amount, enzymes and how prepared and any supplements or antibiotics) that will really help us when you post a new question. Have you been on antibiotics for SID? My personal recommendation is to give it a few days to see if it corrects itself - sometimes they have an off poop because of stress or eating something they shouldn't. If it stays a little off then before reaching for antibiotics I would try Slipper Elm Bark Powder. Most of us use the NOW brand and it can be ordered off of Amazon (and you can do AmazonSmile and choose Epi4Dogs as your charity and they will donate a portion of your sales when you purchase through AmazonSmile) - be sure to get the powder not pills. Here's the dosing information:

1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs,
¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs,
½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs,
3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs,
1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs.

My dog has been on SE for a few months now - he's 95lbs and gets 1/2tsp 2x days - his poops are the best, most consistent we've had in 3yrs. I recommend starting with a dose a little less than what's recommended above. Here's the link to our SE page: https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/. If after a few days you still don't see improvement with the SE then I would talk to the vet about Tylan.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Olesia711
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Jul 2018, 23:06

I second what Madelon suggested.
With EPI is that we now know that these dogs have SID (small intestinal dysbiosis)... but the deal is whether or not it is under control or not..... many of our pups when first started on the enzymes improve initially and then the loose stools come back. It is not that the enzymes are not working but that SID is uncontrolled. Some times once the dog starts the enzymes the poos improve and the sloppy poos don't return... this is when although SID is going on, it is pretty much under decent control.

With EPI dogs and SID, the gut flora is different from other normal dogs and even different from dogs with other gastrointestinal conditions. Our dogs struggle with not enough of a variety of bacteria (good and bad) and not enough of a population of bacteria with the bacteria that is there. Prebiotics feed the bacteria and universally improve the gut of any dog with gut flora issues.... Probiotics is additional bacteria. Unfortunately what would really work is if we could identify what bacteria is needed for each dog (as each one's gut flora is different) and then if we could just give them what we identified that the needed- -that would be awesome... but for now.... we are just giving our dogs a "one size fits all" probiotic solution ad hoping it works..............

In the past, to treat SID, we used to immediately resort to antibiotics when SID needed to be under better control, but we have since learned not to automatically start enzymes but rather "try" a prebiotic first.... or a prebiotic with probiotics.... if that doesn't get the SID under control in short order, then try antibiotics. IN the past, they used to almost always give Metronidazole/Flagyl antibiotic -sometimes it worked but often it did not and the dog and the owners struggled. Then they discovered that Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder 100 gram), actually made for chickens, bees & pigs but now is used on dogs and even cats and it works MUCH better than Metronidazole.

SO... Slippery Elm is a prebiotic.... the key with Slippery Elm is to always go with the loose powder, not capsules.... and this is a case where sometimes less is better. Too much of a prebiotic will give loose stools... so start off on the low end and see if this helps get the gut flora under better control. If not, then ask the vet to try Tylan antibiotic / twice daily / 45 days.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Jul 2018, 23:09

Oh..... and jsut to share my experience... when Izzy was first diagnosed, they put her on enzymes.... nothing.... no improvement at all, vet then started her on Metronidazole, again no improvement.... my vet back then was such a wonderful caring vet, he started calling me every night to see if things improved yet.... for two weeks nothing changed...then he put Izzy on Tylan antibiotic... within 24 hours, normal poo. What i then learned is that the enzymes WERE working, but that uncontrolled SID masked the improvement because SID has some of the same signs as EPI does.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Rudysmom

Re: Poop consistency

Post by Rudysmom » 28 Jul 2018, 10:51

Thank you for your encouragement. It seems his poop is different each time these days! But it's still an improvement from what it was before the enzymes. So, what happened on Thursday evening was I noticed a bit of blood around his muzzle so I checked his mouth and there was an "inflammation" around his lower canine on either side of his mouth. I assume these are the oral ulcers. So, upon contacting my vet, who is amazing and supportive, he suggested to reduce the enzyme for 4 tsp to 3 tsp and see how he responds. Also, he suggested mixing it with a canned food so that it might not have as much contact with his mouth as it would with the dry kibble (even though I'd mixed with water). So, I did that change. I'm guessing that's part of what caused the poop change. But I've been an emotional basket case so I started freaking out when I saw it soften. In fact, he had a poop that was more yellow than brown last night and I cried my eyes out. Then this morning, it's more firm and darkening up. Not only is it a "poop roller coaster", it's an emotional roller coaster!
Further to all this...I received the enzyme from Diane enzymes yesterday so I'll be switching over to that by tomorrow. There's just a small amount left in the container from the vet that I'll finish up first.

I'll update my signature as suggested!

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Bpcooper14
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Bpcooper14 » 28 Jul 2018, 13:03

I have, fortunately, not had any issues with oral ulcers with Ace yet but here is my routine. I have mixed the enzymes in with hot water in a small container and let sit 5-10 minutes. I then pour some of his meal into a bowl and mix the mixture in for another 10+ minutes (depending on if I get side tracked or not). I'll add B12, Slippery Elm, etc. to the rest of the dry food and shake/mix to cover. When I am getting ready to feed Ace, I throw the Dry mixture in with the enzymed mixture and feed. I've had trial and error with the amount of liquid to use. For 1 tsp of enzyme, I have only been using a few tsp's of liquid. Too wet and he wouldn't eat. Not quite wet enough, he wouldn't eat. Mixing and letting it sit and work, he wouldn't eat. He can apparently be finicky when he wants to be. This is what i've found works best for us feeding wise.
Hi all, I'm Bill. Ace was diagnosed with EPI on 5/31/18. In January, 2018 he was at the vet for routine check-up and weighed in at 34 lbs. In May after fighting with weeks of poor poo, he weighed 24.6 lbs. On Saturday July 28th, Ace was diagnosed as diabetic.
2 meals per day. He receives 6 units Vetsulin injections twice daily with each meal.
1 cup Victor Multi pro with 1/2 cup ground chicken breast, 1/4 cup sweet potato, 1/4 fat free cottage cheese. 1/2 tsp Pantenex enzymes, incubated 20-30 minutes.

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Olesia711
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Olesia711 » 28 Jul 2018, 13:15

ahhh... the darn mouth sores..... your vet gave you a good suggestion... to lower the enzymes a wee bit AND adding a bit of canned food was also another great suggestion. Basically either or both should help dilute the caustic properties of the enzymes.

Sorry you experienced the sloppy poo situation and freaked out.... but welcome to the club... i think most of us have periodic melt-downs especially in the beginning.......the good news is that some day, managing EPI will become 2nd nature to you.... and when these set-backs happen and you will think to yourself.... no big deal, i know how to get THAT under control :)

Another trick to curbing mouth sores is to let the food incubate a little longer. SOme add a little more liquid, but then some dogs don't want to eat real mushy food. Your vet's suggestion to add a bit of canned food was an excellent other suggestion!

And glad the poos straightened out.

Question for you thou... i noticed you mentioned 4 tsps of enzymes.... is this to a ratio of 4 cups of kibble? Just want to check because you might have been giving too much enzymes if much less than 4 cups of food.......... and that too can contribute to sloppy poos in some but not all EPI dogs.

In case you have not yet noticed.... there are a lot of "if's, and's, but's and maybe's to dealing with EPI... in getting it under good management.... this is why we suggest keeping a journal or else you will drive yourself crazy!
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Rudysmom

Re: Poop consistency

Post by Rudysmom » 28 Jul 2018, 13:24

Thank you for the "recipe" bpCooper :)

As for the enzyme, the 4 tsp was for 3 C food. Rudy used to have 2 C of food per feeding before he got sick, but we upped the amount to 3 C to help him gain weight. The vet suggested a higher dose in order to hopefully alleviate the symptoms sooner and then start to peel back as he became stable. But then he got the sores. He said we'll bump it back up if he's not adjusting to the 3 tsp. Also, the formulation of Diane Enzymes is different than PankAid so I'll keep it at 3 tsp for a bit until we see how that goes.

I think that I may have originally added too much water so he was lapping up the liquid which allowed for more contact in the mouth.

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Riley's Mom
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Re: Poop consistency

Post by Riley's Mom » 28 Jul 2018, 14:31

Sorry to hear you're on the poop rollercoaster. It should level out....hang in there!
I agree with Olesia, too much enzyme can cause iffy poops just as too little can. The rule of thumb in the beginning is 1 level tsp per cup of food. Then you can adjust up or down as you fine tune things.
As Olesia said, lots of ifs and maybes with EPI dogs. This is because each EPI dog responds a little differently.
Am I correct in that you are feeding 3 cups of food per meal with 3 tsp of enzymes now (down from 4tsp)? I suggest you watch things for a few days to see if that helps the poops and the mouth sores. Then if you are still having troubles, let us know and we'll help you figure a plan to tweak things again.
A few ways to address the mouth sores: Let the enzymes incubate a bit longer, some people also wipe off their dog's mouth or squirt their mouth out with a squirt bottle after eating to help. Some throw a couple of kibbles in the water bowl so the dog "bobs" for them and this washes the mouth out a bit. All of these things can help a little with the mouth sores.
Keep us posted!
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

Rudysmom

Re: Poop consistency

Post by Rudysmom » 28 Jul 2018, 14:48

Hi Elizabeth,
Yes, 3C food with 3 tsp enzyme. Love the idea of bobbing for kibble!

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