Maybe not EPI?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 13 Jan 2020, 21:46

Hi Nate, and apologies for hijacking your post. I guess maybe we both need to look into the epi test for our pups. If I find a way to get one more reasonably priced, I'll let you know, too. Take care---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by jilbert57 » 13 Jan 2020, 22:45

Maybe ask your vet how much it would be to have IDEXX run just the Tli.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 14 Jan 2020, 05:24

Thanks, Jill. I will do that. Interestingly, though, reading on the Epi4Dogs facebook page, a chart on B12 deficiency symptoms includes fearfulness. In spite of months of taking Wonderlabs Int/fac, Tucker is afraid of everything, these days. He wants so terribly to go for a walk, but halfway down the driveway he freezes, and starts to shake when I try to coax him on. This is so out of character, so I'm thinking maybe we do the whole thing asap. Thanks, as always for your guidance.---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Jean » 14 Jan 2020, 05:57

I think its important to jump in on posts as they often give inspiration

As to fearfulness, if this is a new thing then b12 often helps, the staring could be pain in the belly is there any rumbling ?

As to the cost of cTLI cobalamin test, we paid £300 in 2010 which equated to $389 in todays prices, its pretty high as its specific , its probably more now

We can only recommend that people get the test done, as with anything, the wrong medicines, protocol is something we cannot support any longer than weeks

Let us k ow

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by jilbert57 » 14 Jan 2020, 09:13

Hi Pam, when Mickey got fearful plus some other symptoms his thyroid level had dropped. He was put on ThyroTabs and within a week he was happy again.
Has Tucker had his thyroid checked recently?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Nking2121
Member
Posts: 4
Country: United States
Pet name: Jax
My name: Nate

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Nking2121 » 17 Jan 2020, 21:05

Hello all, thanks for the replies and good dialogue. Everyone has had great questions and replies.

We went today and had blood drawn for the test. It was $347.00 for the tLi, B12 and folate panel. Hopefully we find out something soon. Jax seemed very bloated yesterday and you could hear his stomach gurgling from across the room. When we took him for a walk it sounded like constant sloshing in his belly. We could tell he didn’t feel well. This comes after the 3 week trial of Pan tenex with Taste of the Wild - salmon, fish. We started with 1/2 tsp of enzymes and eventually up to 2 tsp and grinding up the kibble. His stool remained Huge and cow patty like.

Seems like nothing was working so we had to get some conclusive answers. He was 69.5 lbs at the vet today. The same from the beginning of September. He’s looking more thin as of late too. Hips feel more bony and today you could see his ribs. Really hope we can get this figured out soon. It’s supposed to be a 3 day turn around for the results.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by jilbert57 » 17 Jan 2020, 23:47

Hi Nate,
Glad to see you got the testing done. Hopefully when you get results it can point you in a direction.
Just to be clear, the Pantenex are 10x. So you started out at around 1/2 teaspoon per 1 cup food? How are you preparing it? The diet of grainfree kibble less than 4%, B12 supplement if needed and antibiotic are all needed if Epi.
Hope to hear test results next week.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Madelon » 18 Jan 2020, 11:33

Hi Nate. Glad you had the test done. Just want to make sure your pup was fasted for at least 8 hours before they drew the blood? Also, please check with your vet and ask them to check with the lab but we typically recommend not drawing the blood on Thursday or Friday so it's not sitting over the weekend without being properly stored - so just check to be sure the lab was open on the weekend in order to receive the blood and test it.

I just compared the label of Pan Tenex enzymes to Diane's Pancreatin 6x as I'm not really familiar with Pan Tenex - I use EnzymeDiane Pancreatin 6x. The Pan Tenex enzyme strength is actually less than the Pancreatin 6x so I think that's where a big part of the problem is. I highly recommend using 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, however, you may have to use a bit more with the Pan Tenex as the enzyme strength is actually less. If you increase to 1 level teaspoon and are seeing improvements in the poop but still not where it should be then you might try 1 level teaspoon plus 1/8th teaspoon wait 3-5 days to see the results.

If your dog does indeed have EPI you will not see good results until you have the four cornerstones in place and the right balance of each, but don't worry we will be here to help you!!

For now, I would increase the enzymes AND if you haven't already, try giving some slippery elm bark powder https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by jilbert57 » 18 Jan 2020, 11:56

Thank you Madelon!

Nate: my bad for the information on the Pan Tenex 10x amount to use. When I looked it up it said 10 times strength and I took it at its word instead of comparing it to enzymediane 6x!

Learn at least 1 thing every day. I just did LOL!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Jean
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Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Maybe not EPI?

Post by Jean » 18 Jan 2020, 12:42

good luck Nate

i remember Kara being like this its just so scary, but it will hopefully resolve, I had to put a jumper on her at one time as she was so thin

Tylan helps considerably, but the food is the big one, Kara was intollerant of most proteins. lamb was the one we settled on for 8 years and suited her well, as you can appreciate, the enzymes over here are diferent, also te b12 supplementation is also very important

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

let us know what the results are


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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