Sibo

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

Sibo

Post by Yogibear » 17 Jan 2020, 17:17

According to yogi's lab results his cobalamin fasting result was 273 which I am now giving him 2 b12 wonderlabs tabs daily. His folate fasting result was 14.2 he is not on any antibiotics. I know his folate is in range but I am suspecting he has SIBO bc I do hear loud stomach noises after he eats and he burps up water at least 5 times a day and has 2 sulfur burps that I know of. And still not gaining any weight back and poops at least 3 times a day. I mentioned to the vet and she suggested cutting down on his enzymes from 1 tps PER FEEDING to 1/2 tsp PER FEEDING (not per cup of food). Does this seem like it's SIBO? Wondering if I should try slippery elm and if he does not have sibo will it hurt to try it. He's eating 4health Lamb and rice but thinking about changing to a grain free food. Don't think my vet knows much about epi.

Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

Re: Sibo

Post by Yogibear » 17 Jan 2020, 17:47

I'm going to change that*he spits up at least 10 times a day. Because he just did it 3 times within 10 mins. I do put water in his food while mixing it but still doubt that has anything to do with him spittg up

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Sibo

Post by jilbert57 » 17 Jan 2020, 17:57

Hi Tiffany, it does sound like SID to me.

First I would switch to a food which does not contain any grains. The grains can inhibit the action of the enzymes.

https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/

Please keep the enzyme dose at 1 level teaspoon per 1 cup kibble. Are you incubating the 2 together for around 20 mins then stirring before serving?

You can add slippery elm in but I might see how the tummy is on grain free kibble and enzymes, and B12.


https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/

Most dogs do need an antibiotic when diagnosed and Tylan is the choice.

https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

You can see if the grain free diet and enzymes fixes his burps (give it 5 to 7 days) or jump in with slippery elm or Tylan.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

Re: Sibo

Post by Yogibear » 17 Jan 2020, 18:20

Thanks jill and yes I think it is SIBO too. And I am letting the food sit for 20 mins. I asked my vet if it was supposed to be 1 tsp per cup of food and she said 1 tsp per feeding then after I told her his symptoms and told her Im suspecting SIBO that's is when she cut the enzymes down even more to a 1/2 tsp per feeding. So right now he's eating 2 cups of food and 1/2 tsp per feeding 3 times a day. The vet never made a follow up appointment with me after the diagnosis of EPI. See just called me on the phone and said he has EPI and to feed him low fat and low fiber diet and had me purchase pancrea powder plus and said 1 tsp twice a day. Since then I've switched to enzyme diane 6x enzymes. And put him on the b12 myself just from reading info on this site. Thank you so much for your help and will change food and start giving 1 tsp per cup.

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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Sibo

Post by jilbert57 » 17 Jan 2020, 18:28

Sounds good. Should be 2 level cups food, 2 level teaspoons enzymes, for each meal.
Let us know how it goes, and if rumblings and burps go away.
You are also welcome to print any information off this site for your vet if she is open to it.

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 248
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Sibo

Post by Tuckaboo. » 18 Jan 2020, 07:03

Tiffany, Hi, it's Pam. I knew I had read Yogibear somewhere before, so I went back and read your previous post. Am I right that he/she was just diagnosed a month ago? As always, these ladies will tell you they are not vets, but trust me they know their stuff. Here is what I have learned, from here & from just looking around: (Tucker has not been officially tested---my disclaimer, but I trust the vet MY vet sent me to. She, herself, had never seen a case of EPI, so when her first try at treatment didn't work she sent me to another vet. This vet went through several different protocols, to eliminate this & that, and I just trusted him. Tucker is thriving, his poo is a #3, so for now we have our routine.) Tucker weighs 70 pounds, up from 60. Vets always thought he was just lean, with his ribs showing & his high energy, but so many EPI symptoms had begun to appear, that when I read the term EPI & googled it, I was certain we were suffering from the condition. WE were suffering. Please read my signature, so you can see what we have learned to do, below. I recently tried slippery elm, too, but I didn't like the look of his poo, so I went back to the full dose of Tylan. This condition is expensive to treat, and we are in our late 60's, with five dogs and six grandchildren, so we have to economize. IDK your situation, but if it's OK I'm sharing the cost-cutting measures I've come up with: EnzymeDiane, WonderLab B12 from Amazon, and Tylan from Foy's. Mind you, this all originated from the vet's office; we first were prescribed & bought meds directly from him, but at a much greater cost. Correction, much "huger" cost! Tiffany, listen to these guys. Follow their directions. You will most likely see good results, as I have (my second vet was correct with the enzymes & tylan, but just said to buy otc human B12, which was not correct). Reading back over this, I sound so bossy! Sorry, it's the teacher in me. Take care, and have a great weekend! ---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Sibo

Post by Madelon » 18 Jan 2020, 11:22

Hi Tiffany, Yes it sounds like Yogi has SID (small intestinal dysbiosis - formerly called SIBO). Recent research has revealed that ALL EPI dogs have SID it's just a matter of keeping it under control with the right balance of enzymes, B12, food and possibly slippery elm or Tylan.

The low B12 is likely part of the reason for not gaining weight as well as not using the proper dose of enzymes. Unfortunately your vet is incorrect with the amount of enzymes to use. The recommended starting dose is 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble, mix in a little warm water then mix in food and sit 20-30 minutes before feeding. Too little enzymes and the food is not going to be digested and will inhibit weight gain and allow the undigested food to sit in the gut and rot which allows SID to flare up.

I'm glad you got the WonderLab B12 pills. In my opinion, I would not reach for the antibiotics just yet. Give the B12 a few days to bring the levels up and try Slippery Elm Bark powder. Recent research has shown slippery elm can be more effective at treating SID than antibiotics - less chance of recurrence. Here is the link https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/. Be sure to mix in with 1-2 tablespoons of water and put directly on the food before serving.

Unfortunately EPI is like a puzzle and you won't get optimum results until you have all of the pieces of the puzzle in place but don't worry, we'll be here to help guide you along the way. Jus as a reminder, here is an outline of the four cornerstones of EPI:

ENZYMES: recommended starting dose is 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble (unfortunately a lot of vets and the big pharma companies are not aware of this but over the 10 plus years this organization has been in existence this is what we have observed works the best to start with and now the vet researchers we collaborate with agree) mix in luke warm water, mix in food and sit 20-30 minutes before serving

B12: EPI dogs need their B12 on the high side of normal 600+ and supplementing is for life. EPI dogs are not able to maintain B12 on their own. The recommended protocol is a series of shots once a week for 6 weeks or you can try WonderLabs Pet Factor B12. The WonderLabs pills work with the majority of EPI dogs and has intrinsic factor which helps with B12 absorption. My personal recommendation is after you have been supplementing for a month to have the B12 retested to make sure it's at the right level.

ANTIBIOTICS: When first diagnosed with EPI, we recommend giving the proper protocol two weeks to see if the gut corrects itself. All EPI dogs have SID but it's a matter of finding the right balance to keep it under control. We now recommend trying Slippery Elm Bark powder before antibiotics as recent research has shown SE to be very effective in treating SID. However, if the SID has been flared up for quite a while and/or the SE does not seem to work, then we recommend a 45 day course of Tylan and slowly wean off (we have seen when quitting antibiotics cold turkey the SID will sometimes comes back).

FOOD: We recommend grain free with 4% fiber or less, avoid or limit peas and legumes. Feed 150% of the food for the weight your dog should be but in smaller more frequent meals throughout the day.

Keep a detailed log of everything you give and the resulting poops so you can see what works and what doesn't.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

Re: Sibo

Post by Yogibear » 23 Jan 2020, 17:59

Thank you all for your help. Talked to yogis vet first she only wanted to give me 2 weeks worth of the metro pills but I tried and tried to convince her I needed 45 days worth of the tylan powder even told her about this site and the recent research..she said she knew of the site and was going to research it and get back with me well she said she would only give me 30 days of tylan powder and told me to give yogi 1/8 tsp every 8 hours for 30 days. I think it is time for me to find a new vet that has treated more than 1 dog that had EPI. Seemed really high in price too..it was $61 for 5 tablespoons..

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jilbert57
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Posts: 944
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Sibo

Post by jilbert57 » 23 Jan 2020, 20:43

$61 is a lot for 5 Tablespoons of Tylan. I think I would look around also.
How much does Yogi weigh?

Jill
My name is Jill and I live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. I have two dogs: Kiya is an aussie/blue heeler and is 13, TJ is a 4 year old Jack Russell. They keep me on my toes.
Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.
6/1999 - 8/2014

Yogibear
Member
Posts: 11
Country: United States
State: Michigan
Pet name: Yogi
My name: Tiffany

Re: Sibo

Post by Yogibear » 23 Jan 2020, 21:07

Yogi weighs 77 lbs

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