GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Tuckaboo.
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Posts: 248
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Tuckaboo. » 15 Feb 2020, 13:05

Yellow is definitely what we've had here, and it's the color most often described. I'm sorry for you, it must be hard having to do this long distance, and through such differing systems. You'll get it figured out, though, and again, Thor is a lucky dog. Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Niusvil
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Posts: 11
Country: Georgia
Pet name: Thor

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Niusvil » 15 Feb 2020, 13:56

And here this doctor writes again:

"Of course, I did not examine your dog, but based on your description and considering its faeces are not gray I would go for a hypoallergenic ration (rice and chicken both cooked). If this does not induce improvement I would repeat the TLI after 4-5 weeks after 12 h fast. When TLI is lowered then I would go for the porcine enzymes."

So in his opinion EPI dog definitely should have gray stool. Thor never had gray stool, its either yellow or brownish. In all fairness this doctor did not physically examine my dog but his method of excluding EPI seems strange to me.
Examining allergies/food intolerance is even more difficult here than EPI :( I am quite lost now, maybe I should withdraw Creon slowly and see? when couple of times I forgot or mixed up with Creon he immediately had worsened so I'm afraid to do so... and its even more complicated with the fact that have not found the right food yet, maybe he is right and we should go for hypoallergenic food only...

Dear Pam, thanks for your support, hopefully Thor and I will get there :)
I am Anna, my German Shepherd Thor is 2 y.o. we live in Eastern Europe. The TLI result came back from the Netherland laboratory as 14.0 but their normal range is 15-50. I still give Creon 25000 with every meal, started Pet Factor B-12. He has diarrhea often and started Tylosin 1/4 tsp.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 248
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Tuckaboo. » 15 Feb 2020, 15:38

Anna---1) Can you order & receive Diane's Enzymes, Wonderlab B12, and Tylan? I'm pretty sure you have said yes, but I keep forgetting to copy your quotes. How about Sport Dog Elite food? I buy it from Chewy.com; can you get that?These are working wonders for my dog, who used to be very sick. I know I am not the only one this has worked for, and the change has been amazing, starting after a few days. Every dog is different, I know. 2) On the Tylan dosing chart, it says Tylan is very forgiving, and to me this means giving a little too much is not terrible. Hopefully one of the staff will be able to help with conversions, as they know people worldwide, BUT!!!! Yellow, greasy, wet stool is what many of us have reported, so that vet is simply wrong.---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Patsy
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Patsy » 15 Feb 2020, 17:40

Hello Anna, my husband has been to Tbilisi, and loved the hospitality and scenery in Georgia.
Have you checked with Customs regarding importation of enzymes? I expect there will be some need for documentation, and import taxes. It may be easier to investigate European EPI enzymes, from regular drug companies. White powder makes customs nervous! I’m sure you can get B12 injections locally. If you want any enzyme brand names, do ask, though they are listed on the drop down menu on the home page.
Text book epi poo is greyish....but surely if the dog also has a gut infection like Sid/sibo, it will have yellow in it?
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

Tuckaboo.
Member
Posts: 248
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Tuckaboo. » 15 Feb 2020, 19:06

Patsy---I did not know that about the grey! But, if most EPI dogs also have sid, doesn't that answer the question? Seems like hardly anybody here says their poo is any color but yellow; I guess that's why you said it's 'textbook'---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix, adopted on craigslist; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 3 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 1/day, and Tylan 1/5 teaspoon/day. Thriving on Sport Dog Food Elite/Herding Dog. No more coprophagia, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, if a bit of a bully with his four siblings from time to time. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: GSD Thor lives where its difficult to diagnose EPI and relies on your help

Post by Madelon » 15 Feb 2020, 22:46

Hi Anna - sorry I have not been on lately I've been traveling. Okay, first things first, my boy was tested for EPI at 3mos old due to pale yellow cow pie poop (classic EPI/SID) his TLI was 16 - well within the normal range - he was diagnosed with SID and treated with antibiotics - he continued to grow to a whopping 95lbs at 9months old. At 10mos old he slowly started to lose weight, then he started eating his poop, then he had diarrhea then he had the pale cow pie poop again so at 13months old we tested for EPI again - this time his TLI was less than .4 - barely detectable. It takes time for the pancreas to atrophy and it could be that your dog is possibly headed towards EPI with the TLI being slightly lower than the reference range. So I definitely agree with the vet to retest the TLI in a few months. HOWEVER, your vet is incorrect in stating that EPI dogs have to have grey poop - we have had dogs diagnosed with EPI that had perfectly normal looking poop but were losing weight, we've had EPI dogs that had diarrhea but had only lost a few pounds, we've had EPI dogs that never ate their poop or other inappropriate items - the point being EVERY EPI dog is different and they can have one of the symptoms, a few of the symptoms, all of the symptoms or none of the symptoms. My breeder who is also a vet said Doc couldn't have EPI because he had weight loss before he had diarrhea - we proved her wrong LOL LOL.

When they tested the TLI, did they also test the B12 and Folate? If so, can you give us those numbers and the reference range for those? Low Folate indicates a food sensitivity and high Folate indicates SID. Chemeyes should be able to ship you enzymes and B12. If at all possible, I would get the powder enzymes as it's much easier to get a precise dosage. The Tylan you are using as I stated before is the correct one but you need to use the dose I suggested and give it for 45 days.

As for mixing home cooked food with kibble, many EPI owners have done it over the years - you might need to tweak the enzymes a little or not at all - it just depends on the amount of home cooked food you are giving. Creon can be tricky to "tweak".

I suggest you cut up a carrot and put it in a meal - make a notation in your journal the day and time of the carrot feeding - then watch for it in the poop - this will tell you your dog's transition time. Unfortunately people make the mistake of thinking the poop they are seeing is from the last meal served - we now know that a dog's transition time can be anywhere from 12-72 hours. So watch for the carrot and it could come out in more than one poop. This will help you going forward be able to see the results of changes you make to the routine.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

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