Struggling with persistent SID

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
User avatar
Kohlesmomma
Member
Posts: 60
Location: charleston sc
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Kohle
My name: Kellie

Re: Struggling with persistent SID****UPDATE ***

Post by Kohlesmomma » 09 Feb 2020, 16:24

:D :D Oh MY GOSH YOU ALL... Kohle just had the best poop ever!!! I wish I had my phone when it happened!! I know it's ridiculous to be so happy about poop, but he has had nothing but yellow and orange mushy blobs of yuck since before Christmas...i was so happy I did the happy poop dance ( whatever that is) and people in my neighborhood were on there porches wondering what in the world is wrong with this woman!!!. You guys, my dog has been gaining weight but it has been a roller coaster of craziness. I realize he lt could all go south again as it has before. But in This moment. I thank the Lord!!!

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2129
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by jilbert57 » 09 Feb 2020, 22:16

Happy Poop Dance!!
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

User avatar
Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Jean » 10 Feb 2020, 13:42

Even my vet did a jig when Kara's poops went good

Yippeeeeeeee
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3933
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Feb 2020, 17:05

Kellie, what was the last change that you did that may have attributed to the good poo.... what day # was it that he has been on TYlan, or did you start the Wonderlabs B12....or did you increase the enzymes... whatever you did that affected the change will help give us a clue as to what was off. As you probably know by now... effectively managing EPI is all about finding the right balance to the 4 aspects of managing EPI... and often times that can be a whole lot easier said than done................ so it is good to keep a journal to help you figure out what is the right balance of things for Kohle and so that you will have something to fall back on when sooner or later he has a set-back, as they almost all do...
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Kohlesmomma
Member
Posts: 60
Location: charleston sc
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Kohle
My name: Kellie

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Kohlesmomma » 10 Feb 2020, 17:36

Hi Olesia, sorry for the delay in Answering. I really believe that according to my notes in my journal that adding the slippery elm to the regime helped. Although, I also had also given Kohle a B12 shot, (it was due)and I had been wondering if he wasn't at a good level yet and that was shot #5 of a weekly (6 wks) protocol. I haven't started the wonderlabs oral b12 yet as per my vet. Just currently doing weekly shots. I do have it, just haven't opened it yet.
The slippery elm is all that was added in new as you guy's have said to make only one change at a time. Before I was adding slippery elm in only once a week, now I am adding it daily for a bit to see . So far today, the poops are better but still somewhat off.
So next I will try increasing the enzyme a bit as you suggested. All of you guys are great and we "new kids" are so lucky and appreciate your help.
Kellie and Kohle

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3933
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Feb 2020, 19:25

Ahhhh.... so the slippery elm is what helped turn the corner.
We think Slippery elm helps because of the mucilage factor that coats the intestinal lining and this mucilage may help prevent bad metabolites from getting into the system... The other thing is that Slippery Elm is also a fiber... just enough but not too much and the right kind of fiber. Fiber that has Butyrate one of the short chain fatty acids that is known to help combat SID. What this leads me to believe is that most likely, when you get a good handle on things.... you probably should look at eventually changing the food I would start with a low fiber content food and add you own (1) controlled amount of fiber (2) appropriate type of fiber (when you get a chance read the fiber page... and the links)

After a few more days.... what you also might want to try to confirm that this food is not optimal is try upping the enzymes by a pinch.... if/when you do and if the poo further improves.... that will further indicate that the food you are currently using is not the most agreeable for Kohle. Working with EPI is kind of like putting together all the clues to solve a medical mystery,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Paige's Guardian
Member
Posts: 49
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Paige's Guardian » 11 Feb 2020, 06:18

Just chiming in......DCM is most certainly an issue and vets are rightly worried about "grain-free".....the jury is still out regarding causation but dogs are at risk, especially large breed dogs.

Here is a great journal article:
https://academic.oup.com/jas/article/97 ... hHKBfEwC6M


Legumes are HIGH protein so, it is extremely difficult to determine the amount of PROTEIN from meat in a food that is high in legumes. I do think the the EPI dog food recommendations of LOW FIBER does help since legumes are high in fiber we tend to steer clear of foods high in legumes. Also, peas are not recommended/well tolerated for dogs with EPI so that helps us steer clear of the higher legume dog food.

Grains are usually not well tolerated by EPI dogs; however, they are low in protein and lower in fiber than legumes. So, the actual food formula needs MEAT protein to make up the protein content of the food. And, actual MEAT has taurine but grains do not. Here, a grain inclusive food SHOULD have a higher meat content. And, believe it or not, one of the highest TAURINE content ingredients is "animal or poultry by-products" and "fish meal".

Here is an old study (2003) comparing different Taurine levels of animal feed products and how they are processed:

http://www.maosao.info/pdf/0001842310.pdf

I do believe that I have dodged the DCM bullet because my 5 large breed dogs have been on a fish based grain-free diet that does not have peas. One of my dogs is allergic to peas and the other is allergic to poultry. However, every year over the past 5-7 years it has been more and more difficult to find pea-free foods and I think this is the main problem. I read ingredients and food companies have added more and more legumes. Seriously, I have seen, peas, pea protein, pea starch, navy beans, chickpeas, lentils ALL in the same formula. And, now, seeing pinto beans. Seriously, that's just crazy. Oh boy!

These are just a few articles available. I stick to peer-reviewed journal articles. Hope this helps.
Conny
Paige's Guardian (Conny)

Paige, 8-year old Great Dane.

Dx: Malabsorption at age 9 months of age. Low Folate. On plant enzymes for 1.5 years. Experienced bloat 2x and Pancreatitis. Switched to Enzyme Diane. TLI tested but never low. Diarrhea when off enzymes.
06/2019--cPL <50 (normal) SID-Tylan 3/8 tsp 2x/day. 1 tsp Pancreatin 6x per meal. Royal Canon Hydrolyzed Protein Dry Food

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3933
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Olesia711 » 11 Feb 2020, 10:19

Well said Connie.
DCM is a concern, but the broad brush focus on avoiding "grain-free" is definitely mis-leading.... they do not explain the all details..... which are multiple and many layered.

For me, i try to keep it simple.... that are using cheap food sources (like peas instead of sweet potato like they used to use) and claiming peas have high protein (which is not true for dogs), decreasing the good high protein source such as meats/ fish / etc. Bottom line, sadly is profit........ SOOOOooooooo..... with our EPI dogs... we need to do our our research into the ingredients of the foods that we feed our pups and try to find what works best.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Kohlesmomma
Member
Posts: 60
Location: charleston sc
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Kohle
My name: Kellie

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Kohlesmomma » 11 Feb 2020, 12:25

:D ...I'm just sayin' I don't believe I would put so much research and effort into this craziness if Kohle was a 2-legged creature, but just look at my boy!!! ...he is a handsome, bed stealing, german shepherd glitter shedding, snoring, gas-passing comedian...He cracks me up all the time, and is worth every effort. Animals truly are God created they are perfect, honest and loyal! When this first kicked off with him, he was so hungry, I would literally only eat at work so as not to aggravate his situation.

Thank you all for your input and taking the time to help, I cannot thank you enough!!
Have a wonderful day!
kellie and kohle
Hey we all need to maybe organize an EPI Dogs get together some day, It would be nice to make it a "thing"

User avatar
Kohlesmomma
Member
Posts: 60
Location: charleston sc
Country: United States
State: South Carolina
Pet name: Kohle
My name: Kellie

Re: Struggling with persistent SID

Post by Kohlesmomma » 11 Feb 2020, 12:54

Oh also. I wanted to ask anyone...Kohle is itchy. I do realize he was itchy this time last year as well. But my thoughts are lack of b12?(He is getting weekly injections) and possibly the food(RC Gastrointestinal) I am currently working to get a good handle on it, and trying to decide on a food. I thought I had one picked out but one post thought because it had rice in it, was not a good choice... but my question is ..Is it possible that he is seemingly more itchy due to him finally being able to get better digested nutrients? Does that make sense? Or am I being stupid? In other words...He seems more itchy since starting the enzymes, his coat is waaaay softer than ever and shiny, but maybe he is getting rid of "old unhealthy coat" and possibly the food, and b12 aren't quite right...I'm rambling, but it was a thought/question.
Kellie and Kohle

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 453 guests